TheCameronPerson 48 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Through some clever editing (to quote Jeremy Clarkson ) I've managed to complete my first successful (ish) AAR with a KC-135.. Please login to display this image. Please login to display this image. Please login to display this image. Please login to display this image. Sadly the slow run up of the Avons combined with my single throttle joystick (thrustmaster T-Flight HOTAS X) makes close formation flying in the Lightning a bit of a pig. I've read that in real world pilots would only throttle one engine for overtake speed so maybe I'll invest in a joystick with two throttle levers.. Anyone got any tips or tricks for AAR, may as well get it right since it was a usual occurrence on a sortie in an actual Lightning, "fuel critical aircraft" putting too lightly perhaps Thanks. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivin Stenso 17 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 I'm all over the place trying to hit the basket and matching speed so no tips from me how to do AAR in general. But I also have the Hotas X set and I'm using the CH throttle quadrant for multi-engines. I like it because it's very durable and configurable and has lots of nice buttons on it. You can also put the speedbrake axis on there Very nice shots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhazelgrove 42 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 You should hear real-world pilots on this issue. "Taking a running f* at a rolling donut" is perhaps the kindest thing I've heard. There are as many ways of doing it as there are pilots - plus one! I find that matching speed first and then inching in gets the best results - and even then it's not guaranteed. It works for me, though - usually...... Air-to-air combat = the sport of kings. Air-to-air refuelling = the sport of certifiable lunatics. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter197 32 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 From my experience there are things you can do to at least help. If you can afford to with your joystick, remove the null zones, it will allow you to make far smaller inputs and greater control. Trim the aircraft to speed well before hitting the tanker, it should hold at altitude if you let go of the stick. Because the Lightning has so little drag, peg one of the throttles in a middle position and use another throttle to maintain the speed. If you are flying with fuel only in your wing tanks, it may be worth thinking about setting crossfeed from one wing to another depending on how you use the moving throttle. You can imbalance the aircraft pretty easily flying with one engine. Practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingman5 149 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 The real world pilots line up a corner of the screen and keep it spotted on one of the reference bars on the underside of the tanker , then slowly does it! and tiny corrections...(check the control dampers are on on the autopilot) and pop the airbrakes out and in for only a second or so at a time, and dont look directly at the basket . In the real world the probe hits the basket at walking pace , and locks in place with spring clips , the pilot then continues to drive forward, pushing the hose back up onto its drum (that opens fuel flow) marks on the hose show if the speeds are matched as the drum winds the hose in and out to cope with any movement (On the KC135 it puts a bend in the hose , that you keep constant). All this means minor fluctuations in speed and movement are dampened out and transmitted to both aircraft, but we get none of that feedback so don't feel bad if you have trouble keeping on station... we can only ever hope to "get near enough". DR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingman5 149 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Thoght I'd try recreating an interesting photo ( I need a bit of rest from trying to get the TP working!). Tanking off KC135's was pretty rare Especially so for the T-birds..... but I did... so there must be a pretty strong chance the guy in the R/H seat is ME ! Please login to display this image. and my effort...... Please login to display this image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCameronPerson 48 Posted February 16, 2017 Author Share Posted February 16, 2017 20 hours ago, Eivin Stenso said: I also have the Hotas X set and I'm using the CH throttle quadrant for multi-engines. I like it because it's very durable and configurable and has lots of nice buttons on it. That's not a bad shout actually, I may consider making that purchase come payday.. 7 hours ago, dhazelgrove said: Taking a running f* at a rolling donut" is perhaps the kindest thing I've heard. Ahhhh yes I recall hearing that expression, some pilots have just got that flying ability combined with a talent for poetry & @peter197Thanks for the tip with the null zones, it worked rather well C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCameronPerson 48 Posted February 16, 2017 Author Share Posted February 16, 2017 1 hour ago, wingman5 said: so there must be a pretty strong chance the guy in the R/H seat is ME ! Words can't describe how jealous I am Do you remember which tail number the T5 you flew in had ? & I imagine your Lightning flying experience ranks quite high in the list of highlights during your time in the junior service? Cameron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivin Stenso 17 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 I've had my CH-throttle quadrant for about ten years and it has been heavily used. Still none of the pots are spiking and all the buttons work. I also have the yoke and rudder pedals but the yoke is put away since I only fly fighters these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingman5 149 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Just so happens Steve Gyles (Sqn Ldr.(rtd )) posted this on the Lightning facebook pages..... so this is straight from the horses mouth how the pro's did it ! "" Plenty of other Wiwols can add to this and agree/disagree etc. So, how did we tank in the Lightning? It was an art perfected by Lightning drivers, more out of absolute necessity than anything else. Sure, on the likes of F4s, Buccaneers and Tornadoes tanking became an integral part of operations, particularly transits, but in the Lightning it was often an essential part of the daily routine to extend the average sortie length, making them more productive. Consequently, in my opinion the Lightning guys were the best probers going; ........and the worst.......Buccaneer drivers. Later, as the 27 Sqn tanking instructor on Tornado GR1s I watched them on conversion and it took several sorties getting them used to the probe to the side of the cockpit instead of above and in front. I am only going to address training tanking here where everything was controlled by the tanker captain and his crew using full RT. In advanced operational situations it was often done without any radio transmissions, using an agreed rendezvous point and time; then completing the refuelling on lights on the refuelling pods. Safety was paramount. The tanker captain ran the show and wanted to see his chicks. Therefore, the receiver would join on the port wing a few wingspans out, then move forward so that he was clearly visible to the tanker captain. If not already deployed, the tanker would then trail his hoses. Normally the Lightning would use the wing hoses which were lighter than the centreline hose, but all could be used by the Lightning and the technique was much the same. At this stage it was important for the receiver to remain on the tanker's wing. There were numerous occurrences of the hose being unwound and continue to do so until it fell off! Once reeled out and the pipes primed the tanker would clear the receiver behind an appropriate hose. Now this was the clever bit. Getting into the correct position was both vital and an art. You needed to get about 8 feet behind the basket with it sitting between the probe and the intake centreline fore and aft. Stabilise the aircraft by taking reference to dayglo marks on the tanker wing, but definitely not by looking at the basket. Then trim the rudder to about half deflection to centre the yaw ball as the airflow from the wing, refuelling pod and basket produced unusual airflows over the aircraft. Then select the AAR switch on (depressurises the tanks). Lights on the rear of the refuelling pod would be showing red, telling you not to make contact. A quick call to the tanker saying in position and the lights would change to amber, accompanied by the the tanker clearing you for contact. A couple of percent on the throttles was all you needed to move forward at a walking pace, still looking at the tanker wing and not the basket, although your peripheral vision would be aware of it. As the basket came abeam the intake the airflow would move it out by the 3 odd feet needed to line it up with the probe. Then clunk and it engaged the probe. Keep moving forward at the same rate and reel the hose in. The hose had a long band of white paint about 20 feet long (guess) that had to be pushed halfway back into the pod. At this stage the lights on the pod would change from amber to green and fuel would flow. Stabilise the throttles and hold station until refuel complete. The lights would change back to amber once you had received your allocated off load. You then retarded the throttles to make the same fast walking pace back off. Once clear of the hose you moved out to the starboard wing; retrimmed; selected AAR refuel switch back to normal; then in a burst of showmanship and bragging rights engaged burner and departed off forward and away. Easy. The Tornado caught a number of ex Buccaneer pilots out for a while. They, in their ignorance, did not appreciate the need to trim the yaw in the waiting position. Some of them even thought the fly-by-wire aircraft trimmed itself. For my own part I took it as a matter of professional pride never to miss a contact at the first attempt as was the case with other Wiwols on the Tornado force. Most of us went to that aircraft after years on the Lightning/F4 or both and it was bread and butter to us. The technique was identical. "" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhazelgrove 42 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 On 16/02/2017 at 6:11 PM, TheCameronPerson said: Ahhhh yes I recall hearing that expression, some pilots have just got that flying ability combined with a talent for poetry "Rearrange all knobs, switches, levers etc in a pleasing and eye-catching manner......" ringing any bells? Poetry? "The boy stood on the burning deck....." Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCameronPerson 48 Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share Posted February 24, 2017 9 hours ago, dhazelgrove said: "Rearrange all knobs, switches, levers etc in a pleasing and eye-catching manner......" ringing any bells? Perhaps the most important part of any pre-flight check Cameron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCameronPerson 48 Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 Thought I'd share this with everyone who isn't aware of it. Not strictly confined to the Lightning but it's a really in depth interview with Ian Black, one of the last, if not the last pilot to pass out of the LTF. The whole channel is brilliant actually so there's more aircraft there if you fancy it. Btw I'd really recommend adding Ian's books to your birthday lists, when you see the images in them you'll know why. Any Lightning fan should have one, and of course they should have the Aerosoft Lightning too Cameron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivin Stenso 17 Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 What a lucky guy getting to fly all those aircraft including the Lightning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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