virtualstuff 76 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 The first time in my Aerosoft as customer in more then 10 years history I would like to have a refund. - The quality is nowhere near I'm used to from Aerosoft - If you don't want to use the 3d grass due to VAS usage from this scenery which is real heavy, you end up with the dessert (brown color) in the UK. - Numerous scenery errors - AFCAD errors - Etc... Please be so kind to point me in the direction for a refund or another solution. A very disappointed customer, Ok removed the scenery will make a support ticket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny19 16 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Yeah i will do that myself. I want a refund, unfortunatelly also for the same reasons you mentioned above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ugandaone 3 Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Looks like another disaster from I.D.S this time rushed out to spike Gary. Just bought his version - no complaints at all. Bitten with Nassau once already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtualstuff 76 Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 On 14/01/2017 at 2:31 AM, awf said: The first time in my Aerosoft as customer in more then 10 years history I would like to have a refund. - The quality is nowhere near I'm used to from Aerosoft - If you don't want to use the 3d grass due to VAS usage from this scenery which is real heavy, you end up with the dessert (brown color) in the UK. - Numerous scenery errors - AFCAD errors - Etc... Please be so kind to point me in the direction for a refund or another solution. A very disappointed customer, Ok removed the scenery will make a support ticket Amazing that I have submitted twice a support ticket to the zendesk. - First time it was removed without any notice - Second time my user account is suspended in the support zendesk. Both tickets have been removed without any notice and I'm still waiting for an answer. I find it rude and impolite how I'm treated for my first support question in ten years... Trying now for the third time by email and hoping this is a misunderstanding, Kind regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomkellock92 16 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Hi @awf, As per the Terms & Conditions, you have the right to revoke the contract - which you agree to when you buy any Aerosoft product. To do so, use the following contact details: Aerosoft GmbH Lindberghring 12 33142 Büren Germany Phone: +49(0)2955 760 310 Fax: +49(0)2955 760 333 email: info@aerosoft.com Hope this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtualstuff 76 Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 Thanks really appreciated, just used that email, however find it rather disappointed how the zendesk is handled. Anyway will wait for Aerosoft to reply to my email. Thanks again, Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chazypax 9 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I agree with you that the scenery wasn't the best I've seen when it was released, was far from great. By the time a refund is sorted for you, the hotfix will most probably be out for the scenery fixing the mentioned issues, so I would just hang fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi 5161 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, tomkellock92 said: Hi @awf, As per the Terms & Conditions, you have the right to revoke the contract - which you agree to when you buy any Aerosoft product. To do so, use the following contact details: Aerosoft GmbH Lindberghring 12 33142 Büren Germany Phone: +49(0)2955 760 310 Fax: +49(0)2955 760 333 email: info@aerosoft.com Hope this helps! That is incorrect, please read the complete terms and conditions before making such a statement. Quoting chapter 15 of the EULA:Please be aware that in the event of purchasing software-downloads, your revocation right shall cease if Aerosoft started its contract performance (therefore with the start of the download). In this context, your explicit consent is obtained during the order process that Aerosoft shall be entitled to start its contractual performance prior to the expiry of the revocation period and that you are aware that you waive your revocation right by consenting to the start of the contractual performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi 5161 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, awf said: Amazing that I have submitted twice a support ticket to the zendesk. - First time it was removed without any notice - Second time my user account is suspended in the support zendesk. Both tickets have been removed without any notice and I'm still waiting for an answer. I just checked our Zendesk, but there are no tickets from you apart from two tickets from early and mid 2013 submitted from the E-Mail address you used to register in our forums. Your user account is also not deleted, I see it normally. Please login to display this image. Please login to display this image. Could you PM me the ticket IDs of the two requests you are missing? We do certainly not see any in your account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Chief Pilot 829 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Initiate a conflict resolution via your CC company or via PayPal, whoever processed the payment. Sacramento and other I.D.S. customers may also be interested in this: http://www.avsim.com/topic/501802-manchester-airport-uk2000-vs-aerosoft/?p=3551480 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi 5161 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 54 minutes ago, The Undecided said: Initiate a conflict resolution via your CC company or via PayPal, whoever processed the payment. Sacramento and other I.D.S. customers may also be interested in this: http://www.avsim.com/topic/501802-manchester-airport-uk2000-vs-aerosoft/?p=3551480 And this will get you a complete ban from us and most other flight simulation shops right away. Rebooking your money via your bank without a legal reason for it is also called theft and will invoke legal consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtualstuff 76 Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Emanuel Hagen said: I just checked our Zendesk, but there are no tickets from you apart from two tickets from early and mid 2013 submitted from the E-Mail address you used to register in our forums. Your user account is also not deleted, I see it normally. Could you PM me the ticket IDs of the two requests you are missing? We do certainly not see any in your account. Thank you for taking the time really appreciated. But now I.m worried made two screenshots one from the latest ticket and the second where my support account is suspended. I will PM those... Hope not your site is hacked? Have also the confirmation email from the ticket if you need it? PM send Also to add just send via PM the support ticket confirmation email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomkellock92 16 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Emanuel Hagen said: That is incorrect, please read the complete terms and conditions before making such a statement. Quoting chapter 15 of the EULA:Please be aware that in the event of purchasing software-downloads, your revocation right shall cease if Aerosoft started its contract performance (therefore with the start of the download). In this context, your explicit consent is obtained during the order process that Aerosoft shall be entitled to start its contractual performance prior to the expiry of the revocation period and that you are aware that you waive your revocation right by consenting to the start of the contractual performance. Sorry Emi, I was referencing the Terms & Conditions of your website (click here). Section 15 reads: Quote 15. Revocation Right Consumers (cf. 1.2.) shall have a revocation right pursuant to the following provisions: Instructions on Revocation Right to Cancel You may revoke your contractual statement within fourteen days without having to provide a reason. The revocation deadline shall be fourteen days starting on the day you or a third-party determined by you, who is not the carrier, have taken possession of the final goods. For exercising your revocation right you have to notify us Aerosoft GmbH Lindberghring 12 33142 Büren Germany Phone: +49(0)2955 760 310 Fax: +49(0)2955 760 333 email: info@aerosoft.com via an explicit statement (e.g. letter via postal service, fax or email) regarding your decision to revoke the contract. You can use the attached revocation template for this purpose, which, is however not compulsory. You may also fill-out and submit the revocation template or another explicit statement electronically on our website. You will receive an immediate confirmation (e.g. via email) regarding receipt of your revocation if you exercise this option. Dispatching of the revocation notification before the revocation period expires shall suffice to meet the revocation deadline. Consequences of Revocation If you revoke this contract, we shall be obligated to refund all payments that we received from you, including shipping costs (except for costs that resulted from you opting for another way of shipment than the cheapest standard delivery offered by us), immediately and by no later than fourteen days from the day that we received your contract revocation notice. We will use the same payment method for this refund that you used for the original transaction, unless we have stipulated a deviating method with you. This refund shall under no circumstances be subject to charges for you. We can withhold the refund until we receive the goods back or until you have provided proof that you shipped the goods back; depending on which occurred earlier. You shall be obligated to immediately send back or hand-over the goods, and by no later than within fourteen days, from the day you notified us of the contract revocation. You meet the deadline by sending the goods prior to expiry of fourteen days. You shall bear the direct costs for sending the goods back. You are only obligated to reimburse a loss of value of the goods if this loss of value arose because you handled the goods in a manner that was not necessary to test function, features and functionality of the goods. Unless I misunderstood, this implies to me that customers can 'revoke the contract' and request a refund for products that they have purchased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi 5161 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, tomkellock92 said: Sorry Emi, I was referencing the Terms & Conditions of your website (click here). Section 15 reads: Unless I misunderstood, this implies to me that customers can 'revoke the contract' and request a refund for products that they have purchased. Yes Tom, that's the section I also refer to. Please read what is printed in bold right below what you quoted. Quote 15. Revocation Right Consumers (cf. 1.2.) shall have a revocation right pursuant to the following provisions: Instructions on Revocation Right to Cancel You may revoke your contractual statement within fourteen days without having to provide a reason. The revocation deadline shall be fourteen days starting on the day you or a third-party determined by you, who is not the carrier, have taken possession of the final goods. For exercising your revocation right you have to notify us Aerosoft GmbH Lindberghring 12 33142 Büren Germany Phone: +49(0)2955 760 310 Fax: +49(0)2955 760 333 email: info@aerosoft.com via an explicit statement (e.g. letter via postal service, fax or email) regarding your decision to revoke the contract. You can use the attached revocation template for this purpose, which, is however not compulsory. You may also fill-out and submit the revocation template or another explicit statement electronically on our website. You will receive an immediate confirmation (e.g. via email) regarding receipt of your revocation if you exercise this option. Dispatching of the revocation notification before the revocation period expires shall suffice to meet the revocation deadline. Consequences of Revocation If you revoke this contract, we shall be obligated to refund all payments that we received from you, including shipping costs (except for costs that resulted from you opting for another way of shipment than the cheapest standard delivery offered by us), immediately and by no later than fourteen days from the day that we received your contract revocation notice. We will use the same payment method for this refund that you used for the original transaction, unless we have stipulated a deviating method with you. This refund shall under no circumstances be subject to charges for you. We can withhold the refund until we receive the goods back or until you have provided proof that you shipped the goods back; depending on which occurred earlier. You shall be obligated to immediately send back or hand-over the goods, and by no later than within fourteen days, from the day you notified us of the contract revocation. You meet the deadline by sending the goods prior to expiry of fourteen days. You shall bear the direct costs for sending the goods back. You are only obligated to reimburse a loss of value of the goods if this loss of value arose because you handled the goods in a manner that was not necessary to test function, features and functionality of the goods. - End of revocation notification - Exclusion of Revocation Right The revocation right shall be excluded for delivery of goods that are not pre-assembled and where an individual selection or determination by the consumer is crucial for their manufacturing or that are obviously made to accommodate personal customer needs or that degenerate fast or where their best before date might expire fast, if the goods were inseparably combined with other goods due to their nature, regarding delivery of audio and video recordings or computer software in sealed packaging, if the sealing was removed after delivery, if the goods are newspapers, magazines or glossies with the exception of subscription services. Please avoid damages or contamination. Please return the goods in their original packaging including all equipment and packaging parts to us. Use a protective secondary packaging, if applicable. If you no longer possess the original packaging, please ensure with appropriate packaging sufficient protection against transport damages in order to avoid damage claims due to insufficient packaging. Please be aware that the aforementioned modalities are not a requirement for validly exercising your revocation right. Please be aware that in the event of purchasing software-downloads, your revocation right shall cease if Aerosoft started its contract performance (therefore with the start of the download). In this context, your explicit consent is obtained during the order process that Aerosoft shall be entitled to start its contractual performance prior to the expiry of the revocation period and that you are aware that you waive your revocation right by consenting to the start of the contractual performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomkellock92 16 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Oops! I only read up to this part: Quote - End of revocation notification - I see what you mean now. Sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virtualstuff 76 Posted January 18, 2017 Author Share Posted January 18, 2017 Gentlemen would you be so kind to focus on my support issue? Did you received my PM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi 5161 Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 We will! I'll ask the developers to answer your requests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goshob 23 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Gentlemen, May I interrupt the legal discussions above a bit? Correct me, if I am wrong, but the red text in the Revocation Rights stated above seems too much Catch 22 situation. What happens if a Customer purchases a software by downloading it, which does not suit his expectations? It seems to me that once it is downloaded it remains his property forever, no matter if it is good or not and he has no rights for complains or refund. Sorry to say, but gently speaking it sound irrelevant. Hope such terms are very carefully discussed with layers and they comply with applicable Code of EU Online Rights. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErichB 155 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I do not view Aerosoft as an unethical company - not buy a long shot. However, when a long standing member of the flightsim community asks for a refund due to obvious quality issues, the last thing I would expect Aerosoft to do is throw legal mumbo jumbo back at the user, basically saying, 'you can't (really) have your money back dummy because you've waived your right to it - when you clicked the buy button'. That is very damaging to your business and does not set a good precedent at all. Any reasonable user would expect the downloaded product to work as expected (like the majority of Aerosoft published products). To expect any user to accept this particular release for the price, is not a (reasonable) expection from a business persective - and nor should it be. Disappointing responses with potentially damaging results. Far less damaging to grab your developer by the scruff and say, 'we're not putting up with this' with an accompanying statement to users with intended actions. All the forums are ablaze with this PR mess. It isn't necessary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Proudfoot 231 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 In any other walk of life if you bought something that turned out to be of unsatisfactory quality you have recourse to consumer laws. They are there for your protection. If I buy a washing machine and it doesn't work as advertised I would be entitled to a refund or a swap to an alternative. But it seems when we buy software we don't have consumer laws protection. We effectively sign them away when we hit the 'Buy' button as Erich has suggested. This is not helping anyone. It doesn't help the seller or the consumer. The seller has their reputation potentially damaged by selling goods customers are not happy with. Customers of future products may be deterred from buying them as they have no way of trialling the product before parting with their money. Surely the time has come when a full time-limited version of any new product should be made available so it can be tested prior to purchase. 15 minutes would be a reasonable timespan to determine if the product met the consumer's requirements. Other distributors of scenery make full time-limited releases available. Perhaps it's time Aerosoft asked that of the developers it showcases? A bit more effort required but ultimately it would not result in a situation like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otooleg 1 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I have to be honest here I am disappointed primarily due to the poor performance of this add on. Just to get it to work I had to turn off most of the toys, 3d grass cars etc and reduce drastically my settings and even then got Out of memory issues almost immediately. I have a high spec pc so I am somewhat staggered to have these issues.vI have had no problems with Prague, Dublin, Frankfurt and Malaga so am somewhat surprised. I will wait and see whether things improve I.e. Aerosoft listen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi 5161 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 11 hours ago, Goshob said: Gentlemen, May I interrupt the legal discussions above a bit? Correct me, if I am wrong, but the red text in the Revocation Rights stated above seems too much Catch 22 situation. What happens if a Customer purchases a software by downloading it, which does not suit his expectations? It seems to me that once it is downloaded it remains his property forever, no matter if it is good or not and he has no rights for complains or refund. Sorry to say, but gently speaking it sound irrelevant. Hope such terms are very carefully discussed with layers and they comply with applicable Code of EU Online Rights. . If the product is not up to what it was advertised to be the German law clearly allows a refund. The German law will always have the final words on our sales over any EULA. It is the same for any company in any country and their respective laws. A product not being up to expectations is different though. We promise the product to have certain features, these are listed on the productpage. These features have to be included, if those are missing you can, according to our laws, get a refund. If you expect something that has not been advertised and want a refund because of these expectations I am sorry, but that is not a reason why you could refund. Of course the terms and conditions are carefully set up by our lawyers and you can be sure they meet the German legal requirements. As our headquaters are in Germany the German law applies to all our sales. 4 hours ago, ErichB said: I do not view Aerosoft as an unethical company - not buy a long shot. However, when a long standing member of the flightsim community asks for a refund due to obvious quality issues, the last thing I would expect Aerosoft to do is throw legal mumbo jumbo back at the user, basically saying, 'you can't (really) have your money back dummy because you've waived your right to it - when you clicked the buy button'. That is very damaging to your business and does not set a good precedent at all. You are absolutely right that such discussions about laws and EULAs should not be necessary. We did not want to start it, if other users however misinterpret the EULAs or even tell others to steal (aka having a bank refund a pruchase without a legal base for it) that is a point where we have to intervene. We fully agree this is a discussion that we should fight out. I will lock this topic here. The overall inability to refund downloadproducts is based on the inability to properly check that a product has been removed. At the time where the downloadpolicies were not as strict as they are today there were a lot of users who bought something, installed it and then refunded it, but continued using the product. Surely we could build in electronic protections against this, but these would be expensive and in the end cost the honest user buying the products money - which we do not want. We see no sense in an honest user having to pay for the crimes of others. Quote Any reasonable user would expect the downloaded product to work as expected (like the majority of Aerosoft published products). To expect any user to accept this particular release for the price, is not a (reasonable) expection from a business persective - and nor should it be. Disappointing responses with potentially damaging results. Far less damaging to grab your developer by the scruff and say, 'we're not putting up with this' with an accompanying statement to users with intended actions. All the forums are ablaze with this PR mess. It isn't necessary We do not ask anyone to accept the release as it is, nor is Manchester provided as-is. I.D.S. will update it based on your feedback, just as all releases are usually updated according to users feedback. 1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said: In any other walk of life if you bought something that turned out to be of unsatisfactory quality you have recourse to consumer laws. They are there for your protection. If I buy a washing machine and it doesn't work as advertised I would be entitled to a refund or a swap to an alternative. But it seems when we buy software we don't have consumer laws protection. We effectively sign them away when we hit the 'Buy' button as Erich has suggested. This is not helping anyone. It doesn't help the seller or the consumer. The seller has their reputation potentially damaged by selling goods customers are not happy with. Customers of future products may be deterred from buying them as they have no way of trialling the product before parting with their money. Surely the time has come when a full time-limited version of any new product should be made available so it can be tested prior to purchase. 15 minutes would be a reasonable timespan to determine if the product met the consumer's requirements. Other distributors of scenery make full time-limited releases available. Perhaps it's time Aerosoft asked that of the developers it showcases? A bit more effort required but ultimately it would not result in a situation like this. If a product is not up to what we advertised you can be sure users will be refunded and the product taken off the market. We last did so with Deutschland X which did not fulfill the advertised standarts. We can not agree that Manchester is totally unusable. We do agree it is harder on memory than other airports, but issues will only happen if you got a lot of other addons installed at the same time. You could for example fly to Manchester without problems if you run FSX, the NGX, Active Sky and Manchester. If you add HD landclass, Mesh and textures, Addon AI traffic and REX, etc. you might get into trouble, yes. There are many users who use Manchester without out of memories. We agree that it should be improved to make it more usable togeather with more high end addons and I.D.S. is aware of it, too and is working on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerosoft Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558 Posted January 19, 2017 Aerosoft Share Posted January 19, 2017 Gentlemen, we have read these comments and we will speak to IDS about this. Please remain civil and we'll try to sort this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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