16 replies to this topic

[antoinebacker]

Mathijs (Dante),

How are you going to handle the potential explosion of strong sentiments around this conflict? I just strolled around YouTube a bit to find video's about this conflict and the comments (almost uniquely in Spanish) that are very violent and 'descriptive' clearly show this is not a closed issue for many.

AB

[Mathijs Kok]

It is indeed a potential problem. We got a zero tolerance policy about this.

Any discussion about this is simply not allowed. A comment like: "Malvinas Argentinas"or a British sneer will be removed and we will kindly ask the poster to avoid it. In the great team that is making Jet Thunder there are people from many countries, from Argentina and the UK. From the Aerosoft side we'll do our best to avoid any provocation. We'll never call it Falklands but always Falklands/Malvinas (if somebody complains about the order, too bad), we'll try to provide all information as well in Spanish as in English (and German etc). We hope to add a Spanish forum here soon.

[flyingsub]

I was on holiday in Spain when the conflict broke out and as a (then) young Royal Navy rating was startled to see lots of ships sailing from Portsmouth Harbour on the local TV news. When I asked my Spanish stepdad what was going on he said "oh your'e at war or something" (yeah, thanks for the heads up!).

Needless to say I was somewhat concerned at this news and rushed to phone home!

Before departing back to the UK, I did not encounter any negative comments from the locals although the use of "Malvinas" did stick in my craw a bit.

[pennkiwi]

Hopefully people will see this as an opportunity to honor the brave airman on both sides of the conflict. In every book I have ever read on this topic and from both sides, there is enormous respect between those who participated on opposite sides. If the guys who did the fighting and lost friends in combat can respect and honor each other, perhaps others can learn from them...

I have to tell you that I thought my days of purchasing air combat sims was over. Nope! I WILL be buying this one.

Any suggestions on the kind of hardware we will need to run it smoothly? Also, any possibility it will support GoFlight modules?

[Mathijs Kok]

Hopefully people will see this as an opportunity to honor the brave airman on both sides of the conflict. In every book I have ever read on this topic and from both sides, there is enormous respect between those who participated on opposite sides. If the guys who did the fighting and lost friends in combat can respect and honor each other, perhaps others can learn from them...

I have to tell you that I thought my days of purchasing air combat sims was over. Nope! I WILL be buying this one.

Any suggestions on the kind of hardware we will need to run it smoothly? Also, any possibility it will support GoFlight modules?

You make very good comments. Both air forces fought at the best of there abilities and can look back on success. They also managed to keep it a full military conflict where civilians were not a target.

The Alpha/Beta verion is now very smooth on rather standard hardware so I would not expect a lot of problems there. And I'll push for compatibility with other hardware modules!

[Fred Pickering]

I find this product in bad taste it's a conflict that is not over and done with. I dont want to get into whos wrong or right, but it could explode again. There is oil there Chile and Argentina are both claiming rights to thier "Malvinas" the fishing rights too. The UK navy look to be scraping thier "Ark Royal and the Harriers. I dont find this product in good taste.

[Mathijs Kok]

I find this product in bad taste it's a conflict that is not over and done with. I dont want to get into whos wrong or right, but it could explode again. There is oil there Chile and Argentina are both claiming rights to thier "Malvinas" the fishing rights too. The UK navy look to be scraping thier "Ark Royal and the Harriers. I dont find this product in good taste.

Fred, name me ANY conflict were armies clashed in the last century that would be 'good taste' in your opinion. Even the first World War is not considered a closed conflict in some parts of Europe. If there is no such thing you are just not a fan of military simulation featuring recent history. That's fine, you made your point. You will not buy it. I also totally fail to see how the possible scrapping of the Ark Royal and the Harriers has anything to do with that.There can't be a lot of people that honestly believe the highly respectable and democratic Argentina of today would attempt to seek a military solution to this dormant conflict. Such a suggestion most certainly is not welcome here.

You obvious feel the Argentinean point of view is the correct one, as you refer to the Falklands/Malvinas as and Chile and Argentina as 'their' territory. It is exactly the discussion we like to avoid. As you express the same wish I hope you will leave it at the comments you made.

[Spinners]

It is indeed a potential problem. We got a zero tolerance policy about this.

Very commendable. Hopefully. this zero tolerance will be extended to avatars and signatures as well.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the release of 'Jet Thunder' and hope that everything goes well for you and your team.

[Fred Pickering]

Sorry Mathijs

You obvious feel the Argentinean point of view is the correct one

I was refuring "ONLY" to the name and not to any "OWNERSHIP" Thats nothing to do with me I read your post before I wrote and have been misenturprated.

American economy who pumped the money into our industry, hopefully in the same way we can do in the southern hemisphere.

But trying not to get away from the subject

1) I noticed the prices in Aberdeen House hotel etc have nothing to do with the “oil multis”. Just speak to the people who lived there before they came.
2) I see how rich the people in Nigeria, Vietnam, Mexico and Venezuela are and the profits the Billions the Multis make.
OK enough said I know I am a minority I still wish you lots of fun

[Steve_JetThunder]

i prefer to think of our project as more of a historical re-enactment.

I remember playing IL2 Sturmovik as a german. imagining the feeling of being some sort of superman in an all conquering 109 verus soviet biplanes.

and then on one mission the bullets started bouncing off some new soviet plane type. I remember when I got virtually shot down thinking... ...that would have been most disturbing surprise for the german pilots. When it comes to the first iteration of JT: raf. I think it will interesting in some ways. all along most of the development, i've often been flying a representation of the sea harrier. now the game development shifts to the RAF radarless aircraft. That puts us back towards world war 2 era in my mind, where the pilot will learn through the trial and error allowed in the game, how to survive. And that at any moment some argentine with a blow pipe might surprise us.

that reminds me, we have to make sure the viffing trick of hiding the IR signature is modelled. I expect it will be interesting to ponder what it would have been like.

In one of our trips, most of the team went to argentina. we had the opportunity to meet one of the pilots who tried to bomb our ships. The experience was one of meeting somebody who had seen and taken part in interesting times. The man would have been probably younger than me when he was dodging british anti air in during that period when british ships tried to set up their sam trap.

[ChrisB]

Ooops sorry, I posted a "won't buy" comment in the wrong thread. Yes, that war was personal for me and I "polished my boots" a few times. But then again, if truth be told, I object to any war game - which is rather odd really, because I "play" fictional ones like Crysis, Morrowind, Oblivion.

Aren't we a strange and hypocritical breed, who will complain about the moral value of war gaming and then play other hack and slash games. Perhaps it is a fallback to our childhood, when it was "cowboys and indians", "Cops and robbers" or, perhaps, "doctors and nurses" Basically we all have a child within us, who wants to come out and play. So "fictional" games with a "bang bang, you're dead" type of play are semi-acceptable and yet "real war" simulations wake bad sentiments? I am all to often dismayed at how my own country still has a deeply underlying anti-German feeling; almost seventy years on there's still comedians who'll satirise that "Austrian lance corporal".

Can we expect a new Belgrano or Atlantic Conveyor situation? Can we still expect that some of the "troops" being deployed in-game will believe they are on manoeuvres in Chile. I found an Argentinian foxhole there with the personal belongings of a long gone Argentinian soldier. Shaving kit and toothbrush, letters home, a few pages out of a novel (would you believe it was "Robinson Crusoe" in Spanish?). Real people died then and I will be saddened to see their memory soiled by a game.

Fighting and playing at fighting is a "normal" part of life. But reminding people of it and even making a game out of REAL situations... I don't know. I reckon there will be debate. "Political Discussions"? An interesting choice of thread title there guys. Because it's when the politicians foul up, that it's time for real people to die on behalf of what they think they believe about. Whether it has been the Falkland Islands, The Somme, A Bridge Too Far, Ireland, Afghanistan, Columbia... my personal wish (unrealisable I know) is that re-enactments are not made available. Even if you do put an 18+ age rating on it (and I sincerely hope you do) I am rather worried about the possible effect it will have on impressionable minds (of any age).

Personally I am torn between congratulations and enthusiasm at a product well made and something which does rather appear to have a deep and underlying hidden intent to re-open an old wound. Just don't ask the Islanders theselves - although the market there is probably totally insignificant for flight simulation products...

By the way - Malvinas is not a Spanish or Argentinian name. It is a mispronounciation of the name given to the first fishermen to use them regularly. French fishing ships came from St. Malo and the fishermen on board were nicknamed "Malo-inaises". Just like a certain group of German boat and dock people, who used to eat a piece of steak in their bread gave a name to some foodstuff...

[Iain_M]

Sorry to drift off-topic into non-political areas but your post, scary_pigeon, made me think of a couple of things...

You mention the "old tech" of the Gr.3, which brings to mind a couple of episodes from pilot accounts (Jerry Pook's, which I think you are referencing, and perhaps David Morgan's in relation to the SHAR).

1) ECM and Chaff were pretty important. There was a mention that one of the Harrier losses was directly due to the aircraft not being equipped with a working RWR and thus being unaware of being painted by a gun-laying radar (that Harrier being equipped with an experimental Sea Eagle panel instead, which may have led the Argentines, upon inspecting the wreckage, to believe their naval assets were under greater aerial threat than first thought, but that's another digression). Are RWR and counter-measures going to be given due attention in this sim?

2) (I believe) the SHAR was being flown with bundles of chaff stuffed into the airbrake as a field mod to its countermeasure capabilities. Is that going to be modelled? (!)

3) With regard to the IR signature, I'm not sure VIFFing was used in this regard, but there is mention in (Sharkey Ward, David Morgan's?) book of a near blue-on-blue where a SHAR almost fired a Sidewinder at what was later determined to be a flight of Gr.3s (mistaken for A4s). Luckily, the missile did not lock because the SHAR was above and behind the Gr.3s and the exhausts are "masked" by the Harrier's wing from that vector.

Cheers, I'm delighted to see you guys in partnership with Aerosoft!

Iain

now the game development shifts to the RAF radarless aircraft. That puts us back towards world war 2 era in my mind, where the pilot will learn through the trial and error allowed in the game, how to survive. And that at any moment some argentine with a blow pipe might surprise us. that reminds me, we have to make sure the viffing trick of hiding the IR signature is modelled. I expect it will be interesting to ponder what it would have been like.

[Steve_JetThunder]

1) ECM and Chaff were pretty important. There was a mention that one of the Harrier losses was directly due to the aircraft not being equipped with a working RWR and thus being unaware of being painted by a gun-laying radar (that Harrier being equipped with an experimental Sea Eagle panel instead, which may have led the Argentines, upon inspecting the wreckage, to believe their naval assets were under greater aerial threat than first thought, but that's another digression). Are RWR and counter-measures going to be given due attention in this sim?

Absolutely, RWR and counter measures as you would expect will be modeled. I think all that business about seeing, detecting, avoiding, confusing is a big part of this sort of sim.

2) (I believe) the SHAR was being flown with bundles of chaff stuffed into the airbrake as a field mod to its countermeasure capabilities. Is that going to be modelled? (!)

yes.

3) With regard to the IR signature, I'm not sure VIFFing was used in this regard, but there is mention in (Sharkey Ward, David Morgan's?) book of a near blue-on-blue where a SHAR almost fired a Sidewinder at what was later determined to be a flight of Gr.3s (mistaken for A4s). Luckily, the missile did not lock because the SHAR was above and behind the Gr.3s and the exhausts are "masked" by the Harrier's wing from that vector.

yep, as far as we know, viffing was not well used - but even if the pilots never had to use to trick of hiding their IR emission by viffing, the sim should still allow for it. In Wards' book, he describes training using that feature of the harrier.

[Steve_JetThunder]

Ooops sorry, I posted a "won't buy" comment in the wrong thread. Yes, that war was personal for me and I "polished my boots" a few times. But then again, if truth be told, I object to any war game - which is rather odd really, because I "play" fictional ones like Crysis, Morrowind, Oblivion.

we understand this point and just hope, most people aren't upset by it.

[Iain_M]

Great to know all that stuff is in, thanks scary_pigeon!

Cheers, Iain

[Hiflyer]

Ooops sorry, I posted a "won't buy" comment in the wrong thread. Yes, that war was personal for me and I "polished my boots" a few times. But then again, if truth be told, I object to any war game - which is rather odd really, because I "play" fictional ones like Crysis, Morrowind, Oblivion.

Aren't we a strange and hypocritical breed, who will complain about the moral value of war gaming and then play other hack and slash games. Perhaps it is a fallback to our childhood, when it was "cowboys and indians", "Cops and robbers" or, perhaps, "doctors and nurses" Basically we all have a child within us, who wants to come out and play. So "fictional" games with a "bang bang, you're dead" type of play are semi-acceptable and yet "real war" simulations wake bad sentiments? I am all to often dismayed at how my own country still has a deeply underlying anti-German feeling; almost seventy years on there's still comedians who'll satirise that "Austrian lance corporal".

Can we expect a new Belgrano or Atlantic Conveyor situation? Can we still expect that some of the "troops" being deployed in-game will believe they are on manoeuvres in Chile. I found an Argentinian foxhole there with the personal belongings of a long gone Argentinian soldier. Shaving kit and toothbrush, letters home, a few pages out of a novel (would you believe it was "Robinson Crusoe" in Spanish?). Real people died then and I will be saddened to see their memory soiled by a game.

Fighting and playing at fighting is a "normal" part of life. But reminding people of it and even making a game out of REAL situations... I don't know. I reckon there will be debate. "Political Discussions"? An interesting choice of thread title there guys. Because it's when the politicians foul up, that it's time for real people to die on behalf of what they think they believe about. Whether it has been the Falkland Islands, The Somme, A Bridge Too Far, Ireland, Afghanistan, Columbia... my personal wish (unrealisable I know) is that re-enactments are not made available. Even if you do put an 18+ age rating on it (and I sincerely hope you do) I am rather worried about the possible effect it will have on impressionable minds (of any age).

Personally I am torn between congratulations and enthusiasm at a product well made and something which does rather appear to have a deep and underlying hidden intent to re-open an old wound. Just don't ask the Islanders theselves - although the market there is probably totally insignificant for flight simulation products...

By the way - Malvinas is not a Spanish or Argentinian name. It is a mispronounciation of the name given to the first fishermen to use them regularly. French fishing ships came from St. Malo and the fishermen on board were nicknamed "Malo-inaises". Just like a certain group of German boat and dock people, who used to eat a piece of steak in their bread gave a name to some foodstuff...

Perhaps there can be some nod to the possible educational value of looking at this period.

Folding actual news coverage into the between mission briefings for instance.

Other things might be a balanced overview of the historical reasons for the conflict, and depending on which side you decide to play, some local news items from each sides perspective. That might also be educational as to the perceptions of the conflict by the opposing sides.

Perhaps even video backgrounds on the conflict, including interviews of the fighters on either side could be included with the boxed version dvd.....

Just a few quick thoughts.