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Your Input, This seems to be a growing problem


Captain_Walton

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Ok so after being in aviation in both real world and flight simulator for the past 14 years I have seen this issue and wish to share this with others to get your input on this. I personally think PMDG is good but I believe they are over rated. I prefer Aerosoft A318/319 over PMDG's 777. But on the other hand I do enjoy flying the PMDG 737NGX 6/7/8 and 900, I just don't like their crazy price tags, no matter how much detail they have or lack in some cases. No addon airplane "I Personally" believe should never cost near or over $100.

Plus they turn around and charge $115 for their P3D version of the 737-600/700/800 and 900 NGX. That is stupid, I don't care how much so called "work" they had to do.

Also they now charge $135.00 for the base pack of the 777-200 for P3D! Or if you want the 777-200 and 300 pack it will cost you $165.00, for one (1) aircraft type! That is down right ridicules, from a business mind, they may price themselves right out of business if they don't watch it. I thought $95 for the 737NGX plus the 600/700 pack was a bit much, but $165.00 wow, just wait and see their 747 will be more then that.

Now don't get me wrong, I do like some PMDG products, my favorite being the MD-11 and the 737NGX, I do feel they should lower the prices a bit as well as offer a low upgrade price to obtain the P3D version if you already own the FSX version, instead of milking their customers out of every penny.

I have posted this in another forum area here but was asked to move it here, so I did. It seem to get all positive responses and folks agreeing, so I am interested how others feel about this as a paying customer and unfortunately may no longer support them at their raising and what seems to be greedy price tags.

**Please Note**

My "Opinion" above of PMDG is my own Opinion, please do not respond with hate speech or flame war me because of my opinion.

Thank you! :)

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I don't agree, I think those prices are very fair. It's a lot of money, but not if you look at what you get in return. If you don't care about their level of detail, you shouldn't buy their products because it's exactly those details that make them a bit more expensive than other add-ons. The Aerosoft Airbusses are by far not as detailed as the PMDG products, so I don't think you can compare them.

If you want to fly a cheap 737, why don't you go for the iFly? Their systems are far less detailed than PMDG, but therefor the price is also lower.

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I do agree that the prices are steep and that addon price in general is on the rise.

However, modelling an aircraft and its systems is not a simple task. If you consider that these products are targeted towards a niche market and don't refer to all gamers, then one can't help but think that these people must pay their salaries somehow.

I don't have personal developing experience on this, but I do have experience in developing complex systems. A single well-modelled aircraft can take as much time to develop by a small company (in terms of no. of employees), as a mediocre game by a large studio, or even more, and also each individual product needs long-term support. At the same time, a game would refer to a market of tens of millions. I don't have data on the FSX market, but I suppose these products refer to a market of tens of thousands or a few hundred thousand at best. Meanwhile, apart from the development cost, studios have to pay a shitload of money for licencing, especially if the product is not an original idea and uses trademarks etc.

Although I would obviously prefer for addons to be cheaper, I feel that the prices are justifiable.

As Patrick also noted, there are companies that offer cheaper products (like iFly or CaptainSim) at the cost of modelling detail. As all companies, Aerosoft, PMDG etc have marketing departments that put a price tag on products. The companies obviously want to make their product as competitive as it can get. Given that the market is small and that only a small rise in demand can occur no matter how low you set the price, I guess those prices already reflect the best they can do in pricing.

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  • Deputy Sheriffs

It's ridicoulus they want me to pay the full price again. I already own the code, why shall I pay twice for the same lines of code?

Agreed on the fact that they charge twice and that's not customer minded without offering a discount but it's their product and they decide this, just like you can decide to not buy it if you disagree ;)

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  • Deputy Sheriffs

Converting their addons to P3D was 10 minutes of work for the NGX (they only had to exchange the P3D protection with an FSX protection) and maybe 30 minutes for the 777 (changing the protection and removing the Taxicam).

I just wonder: based on what personal experience are you able to give such a precise estimation? Are you a seasoned c/c++ developer with a huge FSX/P3D and SimConnect API backgorund?

If not I wouldn't put such numbers into the world as I can't know if they are remotely true. My personal opinion is, they are not.

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It's PMDGs descition how they price their products and we do not know what is going on in the background that may cost some money.

I right now do not know how many full time employees they have, but I can tell you that our Airbus cost quite some money even though it is aimed at a bigger market and can therefore be sold at a lower price to get us the development costs back.

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I'm not a developer either, but I think the estimation for a P3D conversion of 10 minutes is very unrealistic. After all, everything needs to be tested and wherever needed adapted. My personal estimation is that for this process you're talking in weeks or even in months rather than in minutes. And that's just the technical side, I haven't talked about the commercial side. They may need to talk to several parties like Lockheed Martin and Boeing about this. Set up some new licences and things like that.

I think you've got no right to complain. If you don't like the price you just don't buy it, nobody forces you to.

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165 bucks to fly an almost exact copy of a 777 with full manuals including a QRH and full FCOM doesn't seem too much to ask at all. Let's break this down. When are any of you going to ever fly a real 777? To be really blunt, when are any of you going to have the opportunity to fly a real jet? Some of us are fortunate to have the credentials to fly a jet and some are truly lucky to fly the 777. However, most of us arent, thst being said, it's so amusing to see people who want nothing more than to fly a 777 complain because they have to pay 165 dollars to get as realistically close as possible.

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165 bucks to fly an almost exact copy of a 777 with full manuals including a QRH and full FCOM doesn't seem too much to ask at all. Let's break this down. When are any of you going to ever fly a real 777? To be really blunt, when are any of you going to have the opportunity to fly a real jet? Some of us are fortunate to have the credentials to fly a jet and some are truly lucky to fly the 777. However, most of us arent, thst being said, it's so amusing to see people who want nothing more than to fly a 777 complain because they have to pay 165 dollars to get as realistically close as possible.

With all do respect, I don't know if your seeing what were saying here, I have no issue what so ever paying for a good aircraft. My issue comes in when a developer who made a aircraft for one simulator, then turns around and edits some things and charges Almost $50 more then the original priced one for the same aircraft. And to top it off, making those who already paid nearly $100 for it for one simulator turn around and pay a total of $135 for the base or $165 for the base and the 300 expansion. In turn it is costing those members $255.00 for a aircraft addon.

I know there are some people who will say "Oh, I'll pay anything" for a good aircraft addon. But what about those who can't afford to, I have the PMDG aircraft and don't have a real issue for paying for a good aircraft. I am trying to voice the outcry for those who can't afford it.

If we sit and yell or call names or put down those who can't just because we can afford something is not right. When I started this hobby over 14 years ago, It was a place for people to get together and fly, meet people and help others learn the fun life of aviation. Now days it seems like everyone is out for themselves and could care less about others or whatever. I agree with paying for good addon's, but when a company tries to milk every penny they can NO MATTER what level of detail, that is WRONG.

I am just voicing my opinion for those who are less fortunate to be able to pay out every time a company says "Pay me, If you want it".

***I ask that we please keep this civil and be kind to each other, because forums now days seem to get a little heated. I am just expressing my personal opinion and feelings for those who can not afford it***

Thank you! :)

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With all do respect, I think you are missing the point here.

How so? The OP stated that no airplane add on should ever cost over 100 bucks.

I didn't comment on the P3D argument. Only that of how the OP says no add on should be more than 100 bucks.

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How so? The OP stated that no airplane add on should ever cost over 100 bucks.

I didn't comment on the P3D argument. Only that of how the OP says no add on should be more than 100 bucks.

Not that, I am talking about the P3D issue and the developer making folks repay for the same aircraft all over again, and more then before even.

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  • Deputy Sheriffs

Not that, I am talking about the P3D issue and the developer making folks repay for the same aircraft all over again, and more then before even.

That might be because of licensing which goes through boeing if it comes to PMDG. Not sure though but there are many laws the normal human being doesn't know about. Too many rules can make things complicated.

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Since the aviation simulation market is pretty niche developers can pretty much charge what they like for add ons because people like us are going to pay for them. It's very difficult (okay, impossible) to find as good an add on as the PMDG 777 or 737 (and upcoming 747 :bow_down2_s: ) out there so PMDG know we're all going to lay out the dosh for it. Same with any third party add ons really, including Aerosoft, whose A3XX series is top notch for the money. It's to the credit of most providers that they DO show restraint over pricing policy. I'm no expert but, from some testing experience, I can say that a lot of time and resources are spent in development and testing and they do have to make their money back and then some. After all would you do it for next to nothing?

Andrew

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Not that, I am talking about the P3D issue and the developer making folks repay for the same aircraft all over again, and more then before even.

Is that not what happened with P3D? P3D is the same game overall as fsx. There are new graphical features, as well as fixed code. However, it's not a completely new overhaul. Here's the kicker....it's $200!!!!!! How in the world can anyone complain about buying the same add on twice when they buy an updated version of the same simulator for 10 times the money?

If one is willing to do that, then it's safe to assume they wouldn't have any problems doing that for an addon.

Besides, the airplanes that one can download a P3D version for free are the same airplanes that don't take nearly the amount of time, effort or math and coding skills than the ones who we have to pay for all over again.

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Most customers using Prepar3Dv2 have bought the Academic license which costs 60$. That is the same price we had to pay for FSX when it was released.

Prepar3Dv2 is a pretty different simulator. It's a bigger difference than between FS9 and FSX, so it is fully understandable that Lockheed charges again for it.

On the other side I can understand if somebody complains having to pay a lot more money for a lot less changes, but that's another story.

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There are licensing issues here. P3D is not sold as a 'game'. You should read the small print.

In their license PMDG expecially states that their products are not approved for any real world aviation trainingpurposes (just like all of ours btw), so it's hard to define what exactly they are now. See the red text in all their manuals "DO NOT USE FOR FLIGHT".

It's quite a funny situation actually.

While P3D is sold as a trainingdevice I'm not aware of any addon that would actually be licensed for trainingpurposes, including all PMDG addons.

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Is that not what happened with P3D? P3D is the same game overall as fsx. There are new graphical features, as well as fixed code. However, it's not a completely new overhaul. Here's the kicker....it's $200!!!!!! How in the world can anyone complain about buying the same add on twice when they buy an updated version of the same simulator for 10 times the money?

If one is willing to do that, then it's safe to assume they wouldn't have any problems doing that for an addon.

Besides, the airplanes that one can download a P3D version for free are the same airplanes that don't take nearly the amount of time, effort or math and coding skills than the ones who we have to pay for all over again.

It's $60 for the A Version, that is what most people buy, Not $200.

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In their license PMDG expecially states that their products are not approved for any real world aviation trainingpurposes (just like all of ours btw), so it's hard to define what exactly they are now. See the red text in all their manuals "DO NOT USE FOR FLIGHT".

It's quite a funny situation actually.

While P3D is sold as a trainingdevice I'm not aware of any addon that would actually be licensed for trainingpurposes, including all PMDG addons.

You are correct! :)

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I stop at a dealer ship the other day, they were selling Ferrari, man I wanted one and I was thinking out loud..."I have the money in my bank account", I looked around the car sat inside and looked at the dashboard, what a nice car that was, all gauges were well crafted, paddle shifting, leather seat with the finest stitching one can dream about...I mean that was a really nice car, so I asked how much it was...the price seemed fair but I asked a couple more questions...why was this car more expensive compare to the same car I was able to buy in Italy?

The guy told me that they have to import the car...ok I said but it's the same car why should I pay more here...naaa the guy said, see in America you have to convert stuff to pass emission like in California for example, so it's not really the same car that the one in Italy, I also asked what make this car more expensive compare to a "Abacus" car, he said that these car are not built on a production chain, these car are built by hand so it will take more time to put together and a Ferrari certified technician cost more to employ compare to a regular one.

A technician is a technician i said, he looked at me funny......I already bought a car like this one from you before I said, I've been driving for more then 14 years so I should expect a discounted price on this one since they are the same right....he looked at me funny again, he told me that no matter what if I want the car I have to pay full price and there was no bargaining to do in his dealership unless he decide otherwise, it was a take it or leave it kind of deal, what about peoples who can't afford your car I asked, not fair to them is it....again I got that funny look from him, they have to drive something else he said.

So here is what I gathered from him, his P3D US dealership, his car and his price, do I want and can I afford one or not?

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Hi David,[ Capt. Walton]

One of the things that causes the prices to be high is the piracy that is going on.

Regards,

Jerry Friz

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I agree with you on this pricing issue. I too really enjoy the PMDG 737NGX in FSX, the detail is nice and it is a great addon. On the other hand, I like the Airbus planes more because of the detail is very good even if the NGX has some more features. The thing that really annoys me is PMDGs arrogant decision to make us pay for the plane again for Prepar3D. I like Aerosofts strategy a lot better of having their products being able to work in FSX and Prepar3D. Sure Prepar3D has a new graphics engine and mostly bug fixes, but that is not enough to justify charging loyal customers for basically the same product. As we all know PMDG has refused to change their pricing strategy, but it is their lose. They are losing loyal customers who bought their FSX products. If this isn't shooting themselves in the foot, I don't know what is. Then again, people will still buy the product anyway.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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It's $60 for the A Version, that is what most people buy, Not $200.

You are 100% correct and I'll be the first to admit that I was confusing another license of P3D. I apologize for the misinterpretation of facts.

My original point still stands. Many of us will never get to fly these airplanes in real life. Because of this, it sucks and may seem really wrong to charge for the same plane twice. However, to have said plane which is extremely realistic down to a science available to fly at home and to have the new graphical immersion is in the long run, worth the price.

It's not when you look at it as just an addon. It never would be. But to see the opportunity we have for what it is......it's worth the extra coin. Especially with how creepy realistic this niche has become.

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Sure Prepar3D has a new graphics engine and mostly bug fixes, but that is not enough to justify charging loyal customers for basically the same product.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is my point exactly! since the additions in P3D in your words isn't enough to justify paying for the same product when you get the same thing for the new addon, why does it justify paying Lockheed for the same product? Like you said, there are some new fixes and new features, but it's still the same product.

It sounds like there is a very huge sense of entitlement in this niche. We all pay 60 bucks or whatever it is for FSX with dx11 and some more effecient code. Hell!!!! We have been saying for years thst fsx shoukd have been fixed from the beginning.

However, we don't complain about buying the 3xact same product for double the price it was before!!! I don't get it.

Why don't we get it for free? It's already the same product we already have right? What about the steam edition? We have the exact same product but we are literally paying for it again.

But God forbid, we have to pay agsin for an addon which we will never fly in real life. God forbid that same airplane in fsx is officially licensed by boeing.

Oh and on the manuals.... the reason they say.."NOT FOR USE IN FLIGHT," is because they don't want liability. Boeing nor pmdg want anyone to use it as a tool for bad things happening and quite frankly, they are the same exact manuals boeing prints off. I've seen an original FCOM for the 737 and it's word for word the same.

Here's another funny thing to compare.

Aerosoft ' airbus is nothing co.parrd to what pmdg rolls out. I'll mention one thing that killed the airbus for me...

Why in the world did the landing lights, nave lights and all the other lights come on when the airplane was entirely powered down? That's not right at all. The pmdg airplanes don't do that.

I woukd assume that the crj that's been In the works for 5 years won't have nearly the EICAS and status messages appear when the airplane is initially powered up compared to what I see when I turn the real thing on.

So it's amusing to see people get so butt hurt over paying again for something when this niche has faithfully shown that they are already willing to do that. It's also more amusing to see people try to compare one airplane which isn't even half of what another one is. No wonder aerosoft can give the airplane for free to users who use P3D, there's no endorsement from airbus like pmdg has from boeing.

It's all about licensing people...licensing.

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