"DIR TO" RADIAL IN/OUT PROBLEMS

[rangerobert 11]

Hello everyone.

I wouldn't be bothering and re-open a known topic, but this issue, already posted here

http://forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?/topic/86065-dct-to-radial-in-problems/?hl=%2Bno+%2Bnav+%2Bintercept

and now on "locked" mode since 6 months ago, did find a solution on all recent updates, or not? And in this very case, do we look forward to have it solved eventually, or we must stay with that? I've been dealing for hours with this option, trying to use Radial IN/OUT option, but frankly it was really frustrating. Until I caught that wasn't me who did not understand, but something in sw was wrong ... and you (all, ... probably) well know, as the a.m. post shows.

Thx a lot for your kind attention, as usual

roberto

[The Dude 6537]

Could you give us an example of one situation that does not work for you?

[ubersu 23]

Try the RNAV SID MARUB FIVE DEPARTURE RWY34R, Wollongong (WOL) from YSSY. In general, radial intercepts have problems as noted in the OP's link, the nav data seems to have no provision for specifying a radial intercept. I don't believe this has been fixed as of the 1.3e release.

DJ

[The Dude 6537]

Different problem. Do not hijack this thread please. And if I am correct this problem was posted already.

[rangerobert 11]

OK folks. I made my homework. Not finished ..., but almost. I'll try to make short (as much as I can) a long story, but the topic is complex and maybe it would be more clear to record a video with all the tests I made, rather than try to explain here in simple words what I found. Btw, I'll simplify. If going in a deeper detail should be interesting and/or helpful to someone, pls drop me a line here and I will get back on that.

A private correspondence I had with Frank "The Dude", who kindly wrote me immediately, made me understand that, since the old post I mentioned a couple of days ago, some fixes had been applied on the "DIR TO Radial IN/OUT" feature and extensive testing especially on Radial IN. Pls note in fact that I re-titled to "DIR TO" this post, as it is more correct, talking about Airbus MCDU2. If the developers worked on that, it had to be my fault, if I was in trouble with it, I guessed. Having said so, I flew some hours on my A320 trying to experience all the possible situations in terms of intercepting radials In-bound and Out-bound, by using MCDU, F-PLAN and/or FCU Managed and Selected Modes. And not, I say again NOT, by using raw-data traditional old-style navigation technique, i.e. by using VOR tuning, Course selection and VOR option on the ND. That's for sake of clarity, as I'm perfectly able to fly the "beast" that way and basically on manual mode.

Some thoughts I wish to share with the community:

1 - Most part of the troubles I found trying to learn how to fly the Bus started when I left a well documented flight with totally automated flight plan and "100% Managed", with EVERYTHING already put into MCDU2 F-Plan with SID, Route, STAR and AP, and with flight done without any manual intervention like vectors, and so on. And this happened due (IMHO) to a big lack of information on this way-of-flying in the AS documentation. I read several times all the .pdf, flown ten times the step-by-step tutorial flights in the basic elementary way, vector-based and deep approach, but I didn't find any clear explanation on

"how to leave the automatic flight plan, and use selected/managed navigation, and "DIR TO" feature"

and basically I had to learn by myself what to do and how.

2 - I just don't really understand yet (as never well explained anywhere, unless I lost it for some reason) the real meaning of

* NO NAV INTERCEPT

* ADJUST DESIRED HDG/TRK

white and amber (repectively) messages on the scratchpad of MCDU2. What do they mean exactly, and how have I to work when I have them? I mean ... are they generic advices that I must fly on manual until an intercept (provided that I will be able to have it on ND ... more on that later on) has been reached, or I must do something different depending on the case? And what is the true difference between them? Are they case-sensitive depending on the track I have at the moment, or do they appear anytime I use DIR TO Radial option?

3 - Having said so, I won't go in more detail on how many different scenarios I fallen into when I tried to use DIR TO

* without OR with a flight plan active

* a waypoint/fix OR a nav-aid

* the above when already included in active flight plan OR rather when selected OUT of it

but after a boring try-and-error procedure I must admit that "Radial IN" is working. When possible (if my present HDG and chosen radial-line are not "divergent") an Intercept point is definitely drawn on the ND, and a solid green line is drawn to the fix/navaid. The plane goes correctly on green HDG mode with blue NAV armed, and AUTOMATICALLY reaches the INTCP-point and after overflying it, it turns on the correct Radial, flown inbound to the target (with green NAV mode active). It has to be said that if you change your mind, ... you gonna screw up all your flight plan. And probably because at the moment I keep not really understanding well what do they mean the different lines

* T-P

* IN-BOUND

* OUT-BOUND

* MANUAL

am I forgetting something else?

on the Flight Plan on the MCDU after INSERT of modifications.

4 - What on the other hand stayed right now a real mistery to me yet is "DIR TO Radial OUT". In no circumstances I've been able to deal with it. I have one of the two a.m. messages (or both, I don't remember) and the plane if in managed NAV turns immediately to fly the HDG of the chosen outbound radial (i.e. putting me on a parallel, but wrong route). On an empty display on ND. I tried to figure out if system wanted me overfly the VOR or not, but I never was succesful with this option. I perfectly understand that in RW/RL a pilot never uses that, but instead draws a couple of PBD points (Place/Bearing/Distance, like ABC/150/15, for a point lying on R-150 of ABC VOR at 15 NM DME), but I'm curious to see how that option should work, if AS dev. implemented in the Bus. I must resign not to use it?

I apologise for so long-posting, but I've been unable to explain this stuff differently. My very HOT RECOMMENDATION, either to AS Staff or whoever wants to do that, is:

"Please write a short (or long, as you like) tutorial on how dealing with these semi-automated flight procedure, as all the matter is fully uncovered on product documentation and/or here in the Forum"

Thx for the attention

roberto

[The Dude 6537]

Thank you Roberto for the detailed description.

Here a few (incomplete) answers from my side:

1. The reason that AS did not supply any real documents is because they have no license for them. This would have driven the cost way up. One of the reasons those ultra realistic Boeing products are so expensive. I concur that only a standard flight is explained in the documents and this leaves a big gap in understanding the FMGC. The truth is that it is the same in the RW. We get a manual where all modes are somewhat explained but there are no documented cases that tell you how you must manage the FMGC sometimes as a pilot. It is all a learning by doing thing. In RL we have ofcourse an instructor next to us who can show us everything when there is a question.

2. These messages are also not explained in the RW. Atleast I have found no page where they are listed. Using common pilot sense gets me to understand them. NO NAV INTERCEPT means that you will not intercept the RADIAL IN you programmed on the current NAV routing you have. ADJUST DESIRED HDG/TRK is the same but now you are in HDG or TRK and the FMGC tells you that an intercept is not possible if you do not change anything.

3. In this manual you should find some answers to your questions but again it is all very dull and boring IMO:

http://www.smartcockpit.com/download.php?path=docs/&file=Smiths_Thales_A_1_0_1_FM_Pilot_Guide.pdf

* T-P is Turning Point (lateral point in space where the aircraft turned to go to the next WP when using DIR TO)

* Manual is a leg that can not be manually programmed but is an indefinite leg that is flown in HDG when overflying the waypoint called MANUAL. Many STAR's have them.

4. DIR TO RADIAL OUT is a function I have never used in RL and therefor not interesting for me. I can not even tell you how it will work if it works at all in the AS product. I tried a few combinations yesterday but I honestly think it is not correctly implemented. I would treat this feature as INOP and just don't use it.

And now for your last statement. It would be very nice if someone would write a tutorial. I do not speak for AS here but I am thinking about doing multiple for the A330 that will ofcourse also work for the A320 Family. I know that there is a video company working on it that also did the Dash. Maybe even YT already has some tutorials.

I can imagine that my answers are not 100% satisfactory for you but I hope I shed some light onto the situation.

[rangerobert 11]

Ok Frank. Appreciate your patience. I'll be thinking of what you mentioned and I'll try to digest everything. It will be necessary to me getting

in more detail by reading/studying what is available online for Bus family, I guess. And in fact I already started this activity some days ago. Sure some kind of tutorial like video clip, pdf or even a post here, could be greatly appreciated and helpful for anyone here who wishes to fly the Bus with a serious, if not semi-professional, approach. Why should we buy this AS product, otherwise?

Thx again

roberto

[The Dude 6537]

Roberto,

The thing is that this product was meant to let you fly from A to B as a captain during normal ops. With every update/new version this Airbus evolved into a very nice and detailed product.

But, it is not a study simulator like the Boeings from that american four letter company. Some things are modeled really deep and other parts less so. If you treat this sim like a study sim then you will end up with more questions then answers. So before you are going to read every FCOM and guide available on the internet just remember that.

Happy landings!

[rangerobert 11]

Roberto,

The thing is that this product was meant to let you fly from A to B as a captain during normal ops. With every update/new version this Airbus evolved into a very nice and detailed product.

But, it is not a study simulator like the Boeings from that american four letter company. Some things are modeled really deep and other parts less so. If you treat this sim like a study sim then you will end up with more questions then answers. So before you are going to read every FCOM and guide available on the internet just remember that.

Happy landings!

In fact, I supposed so. Now to me it looks like a child .. a little bit overgrown, lol. Maybe with too much stuff on it, with all the problems that this kind of product can have if you try to use it differently from original aim. It's also very clear what you mean when you refer to that American four letter company, ;o). But the cost of their Boeings is on another echelon, and frankly I don't know whether their products are fully free of bugs. It's been a while I'm not using recent stuff from them. Hoping that A330 here will be on a comparable level, I'll follow your suggestions on avoiding too exotic features and staying back to more plain and automatic flight modes.

Cheers

roberto

[The Dude 6537]

You would be suprised at how "basic" we fly the aircraft in RL. It is a means to an end, not a toy.

[bbarreiros 3]

You would be suprised at how "basic" we fly the aircraft in RL. It is a means to an end, not a toy.

100% in agreement.

Actually the most amazing way to fly this machine in RL is with all automations OFF.

[rangerobert 11]

Hello everyone. I'll basically quote "The Dude" as a guideline for discussion.

Before getting in more detail, I wish to let you know that in the following document:

- Smiths Thales - New FM Rev.1 Pilot's Guide "A318/A319/A329/A321" (which is actually FM2, after Honeywell FM1 ...), available on the link Frank provided me with

http://www.smartcock...Pilot_Guide.pdf

in sections

- Part II / 6.5 - F-PLN Sequencing // pages 234-236

- Part III / 3.3 - DIR-TO Function // pages 342-343, 355-356

we may find ALL the answers to my questions. And very well explained, if you have the patience to go through 700 pages of stuff, with text and nice pictures. Or rather, let's be clear, you'll find there the 100% description of how the REAL Airbus MCDU operates. The real thing, not our AS product, I mean. And the understanding of how the real systems operate helped me a lot to understand our toy, as devs worked for sure on similar documentation. Some debriefing now

1. The reason that AS did not supply any real documents is because they have no license for them. This would have driven the cost way up ...

2. These messages are also not explained in the RW. Atleast I have found no page where they are listed. Using common pilot sense gets me to understand them. NO NAV INTERCEPT means that you will not intercept the RADIAL IN you programmed on the current NAV routing you have. ADJUST DESIRED HDG/TRK is the same but now you are in HDG or TRK and the FMGC tells you that an intercept is not possible if you do not change anything.

3. ...

4. DIR TO RADIAL OUT is a function I have never used in RL and therefor not interesting for me. I can not even tell you how it will work if it works at all in the AS product. I tried a few combinations yesterday but I honestly think it is not correctly implemented. I would treat this feature as INOP and just don't use it.

...

1 - I did not mean anything like supplying original RL Bus' documents, Frank. I know how expensive that could be. I just only pointed that tutorial documentation could be better in the "no-fully automated flight" section. And as AeroSoft product still simulates the so-called Multi-Phase Procedures, something clearer should be written on that

2, 3, 4 - Not really, Frank. In my understanding "NO NAV INTERCEPT" white message appears when the angle between our HDG/TRK and the Radial IN/OUT we want to fly in/outbound is more than 160°, or in other words if they are "divergent" and as such we'll never could achieve our goal if we don't maneuver in some way and NAV mode won't ever engage. "ADJUST DESIRED HDG/TRK" amber message, appears instead when our heading is able to intercept the radial we like. So NAV mode, if engaged, will be able to automatically follow our plan, while if in HDG/TRK mode is a reminder we'll have to turn on our way, as soon as we reach interception route. This part is only partially implemented on AS Airbus, as "DIR TO Radial IN" works, but .. in some way, as several things are not implemented or work partially, by giving misleading results. No time to get into more detail now. The most confusing thing is that they haven't been simulated in a contest-sensitive way. So they show themselves in a funny way, and not with a clear relation with the mentioned possibility to intercept what we want or not. On the other hand, "DIR TO Radial OUT" feature does not work at all, as the only properly simulated action is turning of present waypoint to MANUAL, and with an unlimited time duration. But the HDG is immediately set to the parallel route and we'll never intercept the outbound radial.

Let's summarize. In other words, if our route is an A - B - C broken line,

- "Radial IN" option means to go from present "A" position to the "C" fix through a pseudo-waypoint "B" generated by FMS (named by FMS "INTCPT") in order to have a "B-->C" leg with a HDG which flies the indound-radial. Present position becomes "IN-BND" fix. And with some minor inaccuracies, this is still possible on our Bus

- "Radial OUT" means to go from present "A" position, through the "B" fix to a "C" pseudo-waypoint (generated and named by FMS "OUT-BND" leg) in order to have a "B-->C" leg with a HDG which flies outbound-radial. Present position becomes "MANUAL", and so on ... Already said.

I had several talks with some RL bus pilots who are my friends, and all of them confirmed what you said: in real world they never used that option, except when they were on training in Toulouse. So I think that it would make much more sense to make fully INOP all this stuff, if it is difficult (or out of AS's objectives) to fix the WHOLE thing, rather than leave some things implemented and other not.

The thing is that this product was meant to let you fly from A to B as a captain during normal ops. With every update/new version this Airbus evolved into a very nice and detailed product.

...

If you treat this sim like a study sim then you will end up with more questions then answers. So before you are going to read every FCOM and guide available on the internet just remember that.

I see your point, and I fully agree, but as the product is very nice and detailed, I hope you will agree too that it is not a lot of fun to learn how to program a computer-inside-a- computer and make 2 hrs flight arms folded and not to try to experiment more interesting things like NPA (Non-Precision Appr.) or vector-driven approaches. I hope I haven't been boring, and maybe helpful to the ones interested to these demanding (and ... fun) procedures.

Cheers,

roberto

[Rafal Haczek 1612]

I hope I haven't been boring

Quite the opposite, Roberto. I wish more simmers were like you.

I have been reading this discussion with great interest. Grazie!

[uadriver 6]

rafal

to let you know, Roberto is not alone with his thoughts ... there is at least one other simmer like him (me).

I too have been reading the discussion with great interest ....and thus hope more will agree too "that it is not a lot of fun to learn how to program a computer-inside-a- computer and make 2 hrs flight arms folded and not to try to experiment more interesting things" - and understand how listed (contemporary) features are / could be used in the real & which were not possible in my day !!

cheers

john

[The Dude 6537]

Hi Roberto,

Excellent post! Thanks for investing your time into this.

So I think that it would make much more sense to make fully INOP all this stuff, if it is difficult (or out of AS's objectives) to fix the WHOLE thing, rather than leave some things implemented and other not.

I see this part a bit different. As DIR TO RADIAL IN works 98% correct I see no reason to make it INOP. When I use it like in RL it works perfectly and it is an important part of normal ops. I worked closely with the DEV to make this work and what we have now is a pretty exact representation of the function.

The DIR TO RADIAL OUT could be made INOP in it's present form but you can also not use it. I know this will be an inadequate answer for some but that is how it is for now.

The current product has a lot of functions that are not 100% implemented (wind, fuel estimate, holding, etc). If we leave the whole FMGC out we would be back at the original product

PS, there is a video from AS where the DIR TO RADIAL IN is used. It is around 17:00

[rangerobert 11]

Hi Frank,

I see this part a bit different. As DIR TO RADIAL IN works 98% correct I see no reason to make it INOP.

Ehy, ehy, ehy ... wait a minute! There has been a misunderstanding. My fault. I wasn't clear: I did not mean tu put INOP all DIR TO page, but I was just saying that it could be better to put INOP only RADIAL OUT pushbutton on the right, if we cannot fix it. Ok?

Thx a lot. I'll watch the clip with ... starving interest, lol

roberto