Mathijs Kok

Douglas DC-8 preview (released)

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That looks in-depth indeed. And even an auto-load function for waypoints :wub:

A pity that it will be published just before cross-the-pond. I may wait with getting the DC-8 until next week, not to be tempted to drop my hard won booking.

Peter

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53 minutes ago, Mathijs Kok said:

Start with the complex one....

 

 DC8 CIVA INS Manual.pdf

Damn nice. Was about to ask for documentation earlier so can get a headstart on the RTFM-ing. Thanks!

Hope to see it in our hands soon. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, qqwertzde said:

That looks in-depth indeed. And even an auto-load function for waypoints :wub:

A pity that it will be published just before cross-the-pond. I may wait with getting the DC-8 until next week, not to be tempted to drop my hard won booking.

Peter

IKR!?  I was hoping so hard it would release a bit earlier this week, giving some time to play with the thing a bit to be familiar enough with it to shoot it across the pond. I'll still see how it goes after release tomorrow and make a call on whether or not to take it across this saturday. That being said you must have picked a long pairing (possibly to CYYC?) to not have enough range I'd reckon, right?

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Typo on page 6:

Two blowers operate when the gimbal compartment temperature reaches a predetermined level (about 115°F (460C)). The blowers are positioned to draw air from around the IRU through the secondary heat exchangers.

 

Extra 0 on the celsius.

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1 hour ago, richboy2307 said:

 I'll still see how it goes after release tomorrow and make a call on whether or not to take it across this saturday. That being said you must have picked a long pairing (possibly to CYYC?) to not have enough range I'd reckon, right?

Good luck, it would be cool to see a DC-8 between all those 777 and 747s. Yes, EHAM to CYYC, about 9 hours. I used to live in Calgary and can't miss the chance to go there again with full ATC coverage :)

I checked the range of the DC-8 (5,855 nm); it would be enough to cover that distance (3,947 nm), but probably with very little payload and not enough reserve fuel. Given that the CYYC briefing document requests that one has 1 hour of extra fuel, I won't try that with a plane that I do not know well. Who knows whether Michael got the fuel burn right ;)

 

Peter

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1 minute ago, qqwertzde said:

Good luck, it would be cool to see a DC-8 between all those 777 and 747s. Yes, EHAM to CYYC, about 9 hours. I used to live in Calgary and can't miss the chance to go there again with full ATC coverage :)

I checked the range of the DC-8 (5,855 nm); it would be enough to cover that distance (3,947 nm), but probably with very little payload and not enough reserve fuel. Given that the CYYC briefing document requests that one has 1 hour of extra fuel, I won't try that with a plane that I do not know well. Who knows whether Michael got the fuel burn right ;)

 

Peter

 

Fair enough. Always nice to see airports you can relate to for major events :D

 

Hoping I have enough time before CTP to get a couple flights in to test it out. Fingers crossed.

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As you will understand I spend a lot of time the last few weeks in the DC-8 pit and if there is one thing that is immediately obvious is how much more work it is after coming from the Airbus and even the CRJ. It's a three man cockpit and I now understand why they were needed. If I am not hurrying I can go in 10 minutes from the gate to the runway in the Busses, but here it takes me 35 minutes to run all the checklists and to start all four smokers. And that's without the INS! Having to deal with dozens of performance tables enroute is a whole new kind of fun for me.

 

I really found a whole new respect for the simulator. It's the same when you try to drive one of the better steam locomotives in Train Simulator. Does not seem overly complex until you come to a steep hill and forgot to start building up pressure 15 minutes before. Your dealing with a constant flow of information you need to process. You might find time for a pee enroute but expect to work your behinds off in this aircraft.

 

Checklists Amplified.pdf

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1 hour ago, qqwertzde said:

I checked the range of the DC-8 (5,855 nm); it would be enough to cover that distance (3,947 nm), but probably with very little payload and not enough reserve fuel. Given that the CYYC briefing document requests that one has 1 hour of extra fuel, I won't try that with a plane that I do not know well. Who knows whether Michael got the fuel burn right

 

With full fuel at 159,000 lbs (which is way more than you need), you can load 133 passengers and 6,000 lbs of cargo to get to the MTOW.  Fuel burn in cruise is about 4% less than it should be.  This would be easy to adjust, but I think there should be some compensation for the significantly increased fuel burn at the ramp and during taxi (to make up for the sim's excessive rolling resistance on the ground).  Maybe 4% is too much and I may tweak this a little in a update, although anyone could do it with an edit to the aircraft.cfg file.  Anyhow, if you plan properly for wind, you're not going to run out of fuel on 4,000 nm flight. 

 

Fuel planning for long flights is going to require some calculation.  The only real world fuel planning tables I could find (which are in the documentation) only go to 2,600 miles.  So you will need to use the climb and cruise fuel burn tables to work out a number.  

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41 minutes ago, Mathijs Kok said:

If I am not hurrying I can go in 10 minutes from the gate to the runway in the Busses, but here it takes me 35 minutes to run all the checklists and to start all four smokers.

 

Ouch!  I mean, understandable, and it's going to be a fascinating experience.  But some of us (me, for example) are going to have to figure out how to fit this aircraft in with real-life demands.   Those are sobering numbers.

Ah!  Wait - maybe starting the aircraft can be a hobby in itself.

See?  Every problem has a solution!

Am feeling better now.

Bring it on! B)

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You don't have to start with cold and dark. The aircraft loads with engines running and the INS aligned. All you have to do to get moving is load a standard FSX flight plan using the sim interface (it goes right into the INS), set your cruise altitude in the cabin pressure gauge, set your speed and power bugs, flaps and takeoff trim and you're ready to roll.

 

Or if you have more time, you can bring up the loader pop-up, press the cold and dark button and start from there.

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35 minutes only? Wow you're quick haha.

 

I am a bit slow but having flown aircrafts the likes of the PMDG DC6 and A2A Constellation, Coolsky DC9 and Dreamfleet 727 extensively, i'm no stranger to single-handedly working 3 man cockpits, and dealing with the constant flow of information that you have to re-evaluate to stay ahead of the aircraft. In those aircraft pre-flight, which includes flight planning as well, can take up to an hour if not more usually. So eagerly looking forward to doing so in the DC8 as well.

 

From my experience, the key is to develop your own flows. Older checklists tend to be a bit all over the place if you follow them to the line (in my opinion), so it is important to develop your own flows to make it a bit easier for you in the sim, without having to change views around *too much* on a constant basis.

Regardless, I will definitely be enjoying this bird and posting (hopefully good) content on flying this bad boy across our virtual skies. Thank you @Michael2 and @Mathijs Kok and rest of the team for putting in your work on this and getting us to this stage. Make sure to grab yourselves a nice cold beer tomorrow post release because you sure deserve it! :D

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Thanks, Michael - understood!  

 

Feels a little like cheating but I'm happy to tell myself that I'm rushing aboard at the last minute, having (over?) delegated the startup to my trusty crew...

 

Or, alternative... there'll be separate procedures for weekends and for weeknights.

 

And I'll admit to using autostart in a/c like the A2A Connie sometimes when time is really short, so it's not like I'm going to be a fanatic about these things.

 

Am continuing to stand by with credit card in hand.

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1 minute ago, richboy2307 said:

From my experience, the key is to develop your own flows.

 

Just read an article in the latest Business and Commercial Aviation that argues in favor of "read and do" checklists (officially "Challenge-Do-Verify") vs. the more usual "flow, then checklist" (officiall "Do-Verify") - says CDV is safer and actually faster.  I know that's considered sacreligious in some quarters... but it's useful to those of us who are sim flyers - makes it easier for us to jump from one type to another.

 

Based on what you say, it'll take some work to edit the official list into a more useable CDV version.  Which, I suppose, will be another interesting step up the learning curve.

 

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16 minutes ago, Alan_A said:

 

Just read an article in the latest Business and Commercial Aviation that argues in favor of "read and do" checklists (officially "Challenge-Do-Verify") vs. the more usual "flow, then checklist" (officiall "Do-Verify") - says CDV is safer and actually faster.  I know that's considered sacreligious in some quarters... but it's useful to those of us who are sim flyers - makes it easier for us to jump from one type to another.

 

Based on what you say, it'll take some work to edit the official list into a more useable CDV version.  Which, I suppose, will be another interesting step up the learning curve.

 

I don't disagree with you. I'm not asking you to do-away with checklists altogether. Just change the order of items. 

I simply meant following them line by line in the exact order can tend to get tedious and sometimes annoying in the simulators, as you end up having to go back and forth between stations a lot. By developing your own flows to SUPPLEMENT the checklist items, you can get things done a lot faster and efficiently. 

At the end of the day its up to the individual how they do it, but from my experience I tend to find it easier to do stuff, and then use the checklist later to verify you have hit all the items. :D

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2 minutes ago, richboy2307 said:

I'm not asking you to do-away with checklists altogether. Just change the order of items. 

 

No, I understand - was thinking, based on your post, that I'd want to figure out a flow that works, then write that up as a custom checklist.

 

In general aviation aircraft and single-engine warbirds, I typically do a flow with some kind of directional logic (e.g. counterclockwise around the P-51 cockpit), then verify.  But with airliners, it's harder, at least as a simmer. I think that to master a flow-checklist sequence (Do-Verify), you'd have to limit yourself to one, or just a couple of aircraft - as if you were a type-rated line pilot on a current assignment.  That way you'd really get the flow under your skin.

 

I keep looking for the airliner that'll be that one aircraft in my sim world.  Maybe the DC-8 will be it.

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I see. Yeah CDV are definitely handy for when learning the aircraft.

 

I agree, as a simmer, jumping between a lot of different aircraft types does tend to limit how efficient we get with things like Flows. Really does something like a good 10 hours or 4~5 flights in an aircraft to reach a level where you feel comfortable deviating from the written checklists and realising how you can speed things up. 

 

Since I started to use Air Hauler 2 (a company simulation software), I am able to force myself to stick with aircraft types longer than I typically would have as just simming casually, as switching airframes comes at a cost, and doesn't make too much financial sense to do too often until you expand your fleet to actually own more adddons/aircraft. 

 

I have been in dior need of an old-timey jet and I feel like this is going to fit that bill just fine. DC-8 will more than likely be the mainstay of my simming for a while and I just hope to see this addon develop further, with more variants/models and features added and refined as we move on. :)

 

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34 minutes ago, richboy2307 said:

Make sure to grab yourselves a nice cold beer tomorrow post release because you sure deserve it!

 
It will be more than one. 

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44 minutes ago, richboy2307 said:

DC-8 will more than likely be the mainstay of my simming for a while

 

I'm hoping the same.  Think it might be a sweet spot between the propliners (which have to be nursed through their climb and descent routines, not a good fit for modern airspace) and contemporary jetliners, which feel too much like work and too little like flying.

 

Am guessing based on Mathijs' post that this preview forum will be closing up shop soon.  Looking forward to seeing everyone over on the support forum.

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5 hours ago, Michael2 said:

 

With full fuel at 159,000 lbs (which is way more than you need), you can load 133 passengers and 6,000 lbs of cargo to get to the MTOW.  Fuel burn in cruise is about 4% less than it should be.  This would be easy to adjust, but I think there should be some compensation for the significantly increased fuel burn at the ramp and during taxi (to make up for the sim's excessive rolling resistance on the ground).  Maybe 4% is too much and I may tweak this a little in a update, although anyone could do it with an edit to the aircraft.cfg file.  Anyhow, if you plan properly for wind, you're not going to run out of fuel on 4,000 nm flight. 

 

Fuel planning for long flights is going to require some calculation.  The only real world fuel planning tables I could find (which are in the documentation) only go to 2,600 miles.  So you will need to use the climb and cruise fuel burn tables to work out a number.  

 

Instead of changing fuel burn rates for compensation reasons isn't it possible to fight the root of the problem, i.e., correct the friction rate in its source?

 

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20 minutes ago, wanthuyr said:

Instead of changing fuel burn rates for compensation reasons isn't it possible to fight the root of the problem, i.e., correct the friction rate in its source?

 

My understanding is that it can't be done in P3D v.4.  There is a way to do in previous versions using FSUIPC.  Bumping up the thrust at very low mach speeds, such as you would have during taxi, is a common way to get realistic power settings for taxi, but it does burn more fuel. 

 

 

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