Unable to fly any SID/STAR not based on RNAV

[lol515 17]

I noticed that the CRJ is unable to fly any STAR/Transition but espacially SIDs that are based on VOR/NDB Navigation. 

It was even unable to fly the VERAK 5C SID at LICD, one of the easiest depatures to fly. Its just takeoff, left turn, intercept 338 bearing from Lampedusa VOR and then direct to VERAK. The aircraft just flew direct to VERAK. 

Another example is the very complex GIMIX 1W at LJLJ. It already looked very strange on the Display and so the aircraft did a horrible job on this. After depature the Flight Director just indicated "straight ahead" but the autopilot flew a few rounds and then to GIMIX. 

Another thing is that the aircraft is not flying very precisly while on autopilot. It is sometimes flying a few miles off-track just for fun... without warning and reasons. Also the FD is not synchronized to the autopilot or the HUD-FD.

 

I also would appreciat it if you consider adding a center of gravity indication to DAVE.

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

We'll check those STARs, thanks for the report.

[JRBarrett 675]

19 hours ago, lol515 said:

I noticed that the CRJ is unable to fly any STAR/Transition but espacially SIDs that are based on VOR/NDB Navigation. 

It was even unable to fly the VERAK 5C SID at LICD, one of the easiest depatures to fly. Its just takeoff, left turn, intercept 338 bearing from Lampedusa VOR and then direct to VERAK. The aircraft just flew direct to VERAK. 

Another example is the very complex GIMIX 1W at LJLJ. It already looked very strange on the Display and so the aircraft did a horrible job on this. After depature the Flight Director just indicated "straight ahead" but the autopilot flew a few rounds and then to GIMIX. 

Another thing is that the aircraft is not flying very precisly while on autopilot. It is sometimes flying a few miles off-track just for fun... without warning and reasons. Also the FD is not synchronized to the autopilot or the HUD-FD.

 

I also would appreciat it if you consider adding a center of gravity indication to DAVE.

 

 

The LICD VERAK 5C is actually based off of the Lampedusa NDB (LPD) according to the chart I have from Navigraph, but even if it were based off of the VOR, the FMS in a CRJ (simulated or real) cannot automatically fly SID segments that require intercepting specific VOR radials or NDB bearings.

 

In the case of the VERAK 5C, you, as the pilot, would have to fly the first part of the SID yourself, making the left turn to put yourself on an intercept heading for the LPD 338 degree radial, then turning right towards VERAK once you have intercepted. And, of course, you would also have to manually tune the NDB, and put the MFD into "HSI" mode so you could recognize when you have reached the 338 outbound radial of the NDB.

 

If you activate FMS NAV after takeoff, the aircraft will simply fly direct to VERAK as you noted - that is all it knows how to do.

 

The GIMEX1W at LJLJ is similar in that it requires several course reversals to intercept specific VOR radials at specific distances. It's not an RNAV SID

 

The Collins FMS 4100 in the CRJ is a first-generation 1980s design - it does not have the kind of advanced features found in newer FMS systems

 

The FMS can only automatically fly true RNAV SIDS, that consist of a series of named waypoints found in the navigation database.

 

Now in the real CRJ, the pilot could create a temporary user waypoint that corresponds to a specific VOR radial and DME distance, and insert that waypoint into the departure procedure. That would allow automating at least part of a VOR/DME SID, but that user waypoint capability is not yet implemented in the Aerosoft CRJ FMS. 

 

I do think you are correct that the flight director does not always correspond to the autopilot - I believe Hans is investigating that.

 

Jim Barrett

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

He is.

[CRJisBAE 195]

3 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

 

 

The LICD VERAK 5C is actually based off of the Lampedusa NDB (LPD) according to the chart I have from Navigraph, but even if it were based off of the VOR, the FMS in a CRJ (simulated or real) cannot automatically fly SID segments that require intercepting specific VOR radials or NDB bearings.

 

In the case of the VERAK 5C, you, as the pilot, would have to fly the first part of the SID yourself, making the left turn to put yourself on an intercept heading for the LPD 338 degree radial, then turning right towards VERAK once you have intercepted. And, of course, you would also have to manually tune the NDB, and put the MFD into "HSI" mode so you could recognize when you have reached the 338 outbound radial of the NDB.

 

If you activate FMS NAV after takeoff, the aircraft will simply fly direct to VERAK as you noted - that is all it knows how to do.

 

The GIMEX1W at LJLJ is similar in that it requires several course reversals to intercept specific VOR radials at specific distances. It's not an RNAV SID

 

The Collins FMS 4100 in the CRJ is a first-generation 1980s design - it does not have the kind of advanced features found in newer FMS systems

 

The FMS can only automatically fly true RNAV SIDS, that consist of a series of named waypoints found in the navigation database.

 

Now in the real CRJ, the pilot could create a temporary user waypoint that corresponds to a specific VOR radial and DME distance, and insert that waypoint into the departure procedure. That would allow automating at least part of a VOR/DME SID, but that user waypoint capability is not yet implemented in the Aerosoft CRJ FMS. 

 

I do think you are correct that the flight director does not always correspond to the autopilot - I believe Hans is investigating that.

 

Jim Barrett

 

This is not true. The real CRJ can absolutely fly ground based naviad SIDS, STARS, and approaches using white needles (FMS Navigation). As a matter of fact, it is how we do it 99% of the time. The only time we use green needles (the old fashion way of tuning the navaids and tracking the courses) is if we have been cleared for a legitimate ILS approach (Not a visual backed up with an ILS), OR if the FMS (most of our CRJ's only have one) is deferred.

[Hans Hartmann [OLD] 1419]

15 minutes ago, CRJisBAE said:

 

This is not true. The real CRJ can absolutely fly ground based naviad SIDS, STARS, and approaches using white needles (FMS Navigation). As a matter of fact, it is how we do it 99% of the time. The only time we use green needles (the old fashion way of tuning the navaids and tracking the courses) is if we have been cleared for a legitimate ILS approach (Not a visual backed up with an ILS), OR if the FMS (most of our CRJ's only have one) is deferred.

I guess you're both right and that it depends on the software version of the FMS. I'll look into the approaches listed in this thread and make them work. In the end, I prefer to have 23 working ARINC types with all possible ~100 combinations over total realism regarding a certain software version (or MSN )

[CRJisBAE 195]

43 minutes ago, Hans Hartmann said:

 

[JRBarrett 675]

2 hours ago, CRJisBAE said:

 

This is not true. The real CRJ can absolutely fly ground based naviad SIDS, STARS, and approaches using white needles (FMS Navigation). As a matter of fact, it is how we do it 99% of the time. The only time we use green needles (the old fashion way of tuning the navaids and tracking the courses) is if we have been cleared for a legitimate ILS approach (Not a visual backed up with an ILS), OR if the FMS (most of our CRJ's only have one) is deferred.

 

The particular STAR I was referring to in the OPs example is based off of an NDB not a VOR.

 

We may be talking about different things. You are correct that STAR or SID waypoints definied as a VOR/DME radial/distance or the intersection of two VOR radials can be used for white needle FMS navigation. There are still many procedures in the US that are set up that way.

 

In the OP's example, he was referring to a STAR that required a turn after departure to intercept a specific NDB outbound radial (338 degrees), then direct to VERAK waypoint. The FMS cannot predict exactly where the 338 degree radial intercept point is going to be - it's not like a VOR/DME. Flying to that intercept point (whose location is not fixed, but is going to vary based on heading, airspeed and wind) is going to require a period of of green needle flying in HDG select after completing the turn to the northwest. My point to the OP is that he cannot simply engage NAV mode after takeoff and expect the FMS to find the 338 outbound radial from an NDB and then turn to VERAK after intercepting it.

 

 

[lol515 17]

Yes sorry, I meant NDB. 

The Q400 is capable of that, the CRJ isn't? Strange...

[JRBarrett 675]

2 hours ago, lol515 said:

Yes sorry, I meant NDB. 

The Q400 is capable of that, the CRJ isn't? Strange...

 

The Universal UNS1E FMS in the Q400 is pretty much "state of the art" compared to the CRJ's Collins FMS 4200 It is a much newer design.

 

In fact, its capabilities are quite advanced compared to almost any other stand-alone aircraft FMS system currently available - though not every aircraft model it could potentially be installed in can necessarily take full advantage of all of those capabilities.

 

It was one of the first commercial FMS systems to offer WAAS/LPV approach certification for large commercial aircraft.