John Glanville

Repaints and intellectual property ( IP )

14 posts in this topic

I recently came across a FaceBook post concerning Virgin VA and included was a screenshot of a ( fictional ) repaint that I had made for the A321 including a fictional registration . At first glance not a problem as such until I noticed that the registration had been replaced with the ( now ) real one . Normally speaking when a repaint is made there is a readme file that includes a piece of text such as this example :


LEGAL STUFF .

The contents of this download are FREEware and as such are not be to used for commercial purposes .Do not re-upload to any other sites or modify this repaint without my permission .


CONTACT INFORMATION .

Comments ( or suggestions ) on this repaint via e-mail : XXXXXXX@gmail.com


As the repaints that I ( and most others ) here are uploaded using the Livery Manager there is no readme file included as such although the text highlighted above is still valid and is known by most simmers and is certainly the norm . It is a small courtesy to at least ask first before making any changes to anothers work . I cannot download this repaint as I would first have to become a member of the VA but it is perfectly clear that the original work is mine ( details available on request ) and even if the line description= has been altered the paintwork itself has enough clues . At this moment I have no idea who is responsible for the alteration and under whose name it is now . I was planning to make a new version of this livery showing the correct logo's and registration but will now wait and see what develops .

 

Too often in the past I have been contacted by simmers " complaining " that a repaint doesn't work / has damaged their PC / created an international incident etc.etc. only to discover that the paint in question was uploaded by someone else  to a site I have never had contact with and had been altered and passed off as their own work but they had " forgotten " to remove my original readme file with my email address ( mandatory when uploading to AVSIM ) .

 

For anyone who may be thinking that this is an over reaction on my part , I think you will find that most other repainters feel the same about their work ( also known as intellectual property (IP) ) .

After working on a repaint for several hours / days / weeks / months it is never OK to " borrow " someone elses work for whatever reason . I don't have time enough to police the internet looking for any of my repaints and to be honest , I shouldn't have to .

What I would like to suggest is that when downloading users would have to acknowledge a message stating that the repaint itself remains the intellectual property of the uploader and that permission must be asked for ( and given ) before any alterations can be made . If this is for whatever reason not possible then I ( for one ) will have to reconsider where I will upload in the future .

 

John

 

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It is not as easy as that as the airline has of course also some rights, just as we do as the paintkit base files are provided by us. But I see what you mean and will try to include that in our download section. Good idea.

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This is now shown before a download can start. I assume this is okay John?

download.png

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Thanks for that Mathijs . The concept of IP is not something that is high on my list of priorities and of course we as painters are already making use of Aerosoft's IP in the form of the paint kit , not forgetting the airlines themselves and the manufacturers . Who remembers Ariane and P Tishma who attempted to have the sole rights to American Airlines paints  and luckily how that ended . I know that it is not a concern for most members here and in the past have helped others when they request a particular paint or registration , that is also why on a few occassions I have even painted entire fleets . Other VA's have also asked to host my paints for their own pilots and I had no problem with that , I preferred that they would download from here as that made it possible to actually see how many downloads were being made ( and how popular a certain airline is ) . Reason is simple - more downloads = more paints in the future .

Funnily enough Virgin as a company have already stopped train sim users from repainting trains with the Virgin livery , maybe flight sim is next .

 

I received an " answer " from ( the owner / member of ? ) VirginVA who simply told me that someone else had made the alteration so basically it wasn't his  " problem " , or in fact , that it wasn't a " problem " at all as far as he is concerned . For me an apology would have been sufficient but that obviously isn't going to happen and I have no idea if thay have altered any other Virgin America paints that I uploaded here , or even if I am still credited as the maker . I have no problem with someone who makes an alteration for his own personal use but when it is made available to others that is different .

As stated in my previous post , I have made several ( small ) changes in the paint kit so it is easy enough for me to prove that the work is my own . My only recourse is to remove all Virgin paints that I have uploaded ( 30+ ) and that is not something that I want to do at this moment . If it is deemed " normal " for others to " borrow " someones work , what is then the point of making it easier for them ?

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I've noticed that there have been a few views of this thread ( 50 at time of posting ) but no one has anything to add ? Not important enough I assume ?

 

Looking on the net there are enough posts about ICE AI , SK AI and SP AI all involving " borrowed / altered " textures that are FREEware but the people uploading are not the authors with the last mentioned even asking for " donations " for doing so . These are all classified as pirated and illegal and I honestly fail to see the difference between this and the instance I came across .

 

Here Aerosoft has a policy supporting Virtual Airlines and as such they receive a price reduction when ordering a product . Why then as a painter ( of the Bus since Feb 2010 ) do I have to pay the full price for each successive version when I buy it ? Yes , I did make use of the bundle prices (as most customers here ) but the VA's price is reduced even more  .

In these last 7 years I made 234 paints ( several seem to have disappeared since the server crash , so the actual total is even more ) and if you take 1 week as a average per paint that works out at 4.5 years . All I have to show for that is 1412 posts and some " reputation " points . As a painter I can only speak for myself but I can imagine that other painters would also have expected more support , not just from the forum members but also from Aerosoft .

 

When I tried to discover who was responsible for altering / copying my work nobody came forward to admit to it . If they had done nothing wrong why wouldn't they ? This VA seems to think that it was perfectly OK to do so , making an attempt at humour by mocking my post as an essay amd adding that I should direct it to the person responisble but as they are the only ones who know who that is makes it an oxymoron with the empahsis on moron .

 

Because of their " reaction " I will be removing ALL of my Virgin repaints 24 hours after posting as I have no intention of giving support in any way shape or form to this VA . They will have to find those paints elsewhere and as I previously stated I can easily prove which paints are mine easily enough .

 

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This is an interesting topic for at least one reason: we understand why people pirate payware but, regarding freeware and paints, is it really too much to ask for someone to get permission from the original author to modify or goof around with something? It costs nothing to send a simply email (and takes several seconds) to ask permission from somebody. I wonder what the reservation is?

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Finally a reaction from another forum member and precisely what I am trying to achieve here . Thanks for that .

 

If I spend my FREE time making a repaint the last thing I want to see is someone else making use of that and claiming that it is their work . They simply do not consider it " stealing " because it is FREEware . The problem is I do not have access to this paint as I would first have to join the VA ( not likely ) . For the same reason they could have " adapted " any of the other repaints I made for Virgin ( more than 30 ) and that is why I refuse to support their VA by supplying any liveries .

The paints that I uploaded here should only be found here and nowhere else ( unless I have already given permission to do so ) . All my  other repaints for non Aerosoft products are on AVSIM and every repaint has a readme file with a contact address and a disclaimer that is not be uploaded to another site or be altered without my permission . There is even a thread in the Painters Forum ( on AVSIM ) concerning this very topic .

 

As for sending a simple email to ask , it just does not happen , the same applies to feedback ( DetCord and myself have posted on this ) . We have no idea how popular our " work " is or even if it is appreciated , we simply hear nothing from the majority of the people who have downloaded any of our paints .

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I tried removing my Virgin America / Virgin Atlantic paints earlier this evening but it seems that I am no longer able to delete my files . I was however able to " alter " the existing paints , so have chosen another tactic by placing a text over the paintwork making it " unusable " , ( so far the A319's and 321 - the A320's will be changed tomorrow 20-07-17 ) , so there is no point in downloading them . A lot more work than I planned but as this is my only recourse in the matter I just do not care anymore . IF this VA needs repaints they can make their own instead of stealing someone elses work . The VA in question can be found here : http://www.virginva.co.uk/ and possibly they will have the correct textures available there , even though this is also a violation of the terms of " intellectual property " as I gave no permission for these paints to be hosted there either .

I made a perfectly legitimate request when I asked who was responsible for the alteration only to be told ( basically ) that it was none of my business which I find unacceptable . In the painting world " borrowing " anothers work is not considered acceptable at all and doesn't end well for anyone caught doing it ( it is , after all a small world ) .

 

The priveleges these VA's enjoy such as the discount they receive ( I assume not just for the Airbus ) makes it even harder to swallow . If it wasn't for the painters who upload they wouldn't have anything to fly with or have to make their own . I spend a lot of hours making these paints , researching logo's , fonts , high definition photos etc. at no cost to the forum members only to see others abusing the system .

 

I have absolutely nothing against VA's , indeed I painted the entire A319 / 320 / 321 Aer Lingus fleet , also Air Macau and together with DetCord the same with SAS , not forgetting several liveries for American .

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I just want to throw our input into this (I am the Chairman at the airline he's talking about)

 

at no point have we broken intellectual property. Infact, the alteration he is referring to is this one: https://gyazo.com/4c28424802c54ff00f713003daedb3ad which we were entirely wrong to put our own logo on and I have genuinley apologised to @John Glanville for this. However, that alteration was made by John himself (https://gyazo.com/5556d554619c0328b22d300fca5eeaa6) and a staff member wrongly took the screenshot and attempted to pass it off as his own. However, John made that alteration and it's wrong for him to accuse us of breaking IP when all we did was shared of a screenshot of a livery we really liked (and when pilots asked, we gave them the correct link)

 

Now, the reddit post which I've just read (by the way, can I throw it in there that the person making that post is NOT THE OWNER OF THE VA) and yes, it was probably wrong for us to ignore John's comment and if it was me making the post I would have done things differently (and I will make sure such standards are followed in future) however we've been literally painted onto a popular repaint as law-breakers. Which is not what we are. We are wholly regretful that this situation has come about, however when pilots come into our discord, ask us for a repaint (https://gyazo.com/6efbd7adfcf91fce8f8976ace026fb1e) and then have to read out an insulting message (which results in them leaving) that's incredibly unfortunate, given that we haven't broken a single law.

 

All the offending images have been removed, and we will continue to promote John's repaint(s) as an excellent option as soon as he chooses to remove the defacing text on it.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael Law

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Sorry ( not an apology ) that you are " offended " by the new revised paint of the A321 but that was my intention . If you have read the entire post you will know why I chose this method - my intention was to simply remove them . This created a lot of work for myself that I did not want in the first place .

In reference to your FaceBook post I asked on 15-07-17 at 03:37 a perfectly legitimate question which for whatever reason you chose to ignore resulting in my second post on 19-07-17 at 02:51 explaining why I asked in the first place - which you also ignored . That the reddit post ( 17-07-17 ) was not yours is irrelevant as it was made on behalf of the VA and the tone of the replies was the reason for my actions , my post was not an " essay " I was merely stating the reason why I posted to start with ( it seems that the replies by the individual have since been altered - I just checked and after adding text to my last reply there is no mention that it was edited ) .

Regarding your screenshot ( still on FaceBook by the way ) I had no issue with you adding the Virgin logo to it , my problem is with the altering of the aircraft registration , it was done without asking for my permission . At the time I had no idea if this was a " one off " or that it had been done on multiple repaints , as my posts were being ignored had to conclude that this was the case .

My repaint was a " fictional " Virgin America A321 with a " fictional " registration , your screenshot shows the " actual " reg for one of Virgin America's new A321's , though that would be the NEO version .

 

virgin a321.jpg

 

For those wondering about the " offensive " text ( click for larger image ) .

 

virgin a321 2.jpg

 

I had every intention of releasing further Virgin paints ( including the A321's ) I was just waiting for the names to be announced . As stated earlier I have nothing against VA's , in fact I have put a lot of work creating entire fleets so that others do not have to alter anything at all . Aerosoft themselves were generous enough to include several complete airline liveries in the paint kit so that by adding your own registrations painting an entire airline is easy .

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@John Glanville

You must have missed my point. Regardless of how bad our PR handled the situation (and I don't use facebook often as a method of communication) we haven't altered this aircraft.

 

9794f998ab804fb6e9414b5d2af8ee46.png

The alteration was your own.

 

 

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@Michael Law

It is now clear that apologies are in order , having done some further research ( for myself ) I can see that the screenshot was taken from here :

For the benefit of others : There were 2 posts dated 05 and 08-01-16 ( now on page 7 of this forum ) where I previewed the Virgin America paint using the actual reg reserved for the aircraft , which at the time only had a painted tail the rest was in primer . As my paint at the time was fictional I chose a fictional reg and logo , this was uploaded . Since then due to a hard drive crash I lost quite a large amount of paintwork including the original full fuselage which ( must have ) had both registrations , though I did have the layered fuselage sections where only the fictional reg was present .

 

If only someone had replied to my first post on FaceBook ( placed on a Saturday ) this would not have occured but the old saying " No news is good news " only brought me to the opposite conclusion as an admission of " guilt " . As for the post on reddit , this just added " fuel to the fire " as it where . Due to the sheer number of repaints and posts that i have placed here , it's hardly surprising that I cannot recall everything .

 

It was never my intention to cause any harm to the VA but as stated the lack of communication only led me to believe that I was correct in my assumption .

 

 I apologise wholeheartedly for the misunderstanding and will be re-uploading all repaints within the next few days . I will also post on FaceBook explaining the matter .

To show that there are no feelings of animosity on my part , if you have any knowledge of the names of the new A321's I will ensure that they will be made available in the near future .

 

 

On another note , could an Aerosoft staff member find out why I was unable to delete my uploads - which was my first ( preferred ) choice and considerably less work .

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27 minutes ago, John Glanville said:

@Michael Law

It is now clear that apologies are in order , having done some further research ( for myself ) I can see that the screenshot was taken from here :

For the benefit of others : There were 2 posts dated 05 and 08-01-16 ( now on page 7 of this forum ) where I previewed the Virgin America paint using the actual reg reserved for the aircraft , which at the time only had a painted tail the rest was in primer . As my paint at the time was fictional I chose a fictional reg and logo , this was uploaded . Since then due to a hard drive crash I lost quite a large amount of paintwork including the original full fuselage which ( must have ) had both registrations , though I did have the layered fuselage sections where only the fictional reg was present .

 

If only someone had replied to my first post on FaceBook ( placed on a Saturday ) this would not have occured but the old saying " No news is good news " only brought me to the opposite conclusion as an admission of " guilt " . As for the post on reddit , this just added " fuel to the fire " as it where . Due to the sheer number of repaints and posts that i have placed here , it's hardly surprising that I cannot recall everything .

 

It was never my intention to cause any harm to the VA but as stated the lack of communication only led me to believe that I was correct in my assumption .

 

 I apologise wholeheartedly for the misunderstanding and will be re-uploading all repaints within the next few days . I will also post on FaceBook explaining the matter .

To show that there are no feelings of animosity on my part , if you have any knowledge of the names of the new A321's I will ensure that they will be made available in the near future .

 

 

On another note , could an Aerosoft staff member find out why I was unable to delete my uploads - which was my first ( preferred ) choice and considerably less work .

There's no bad blood here. We recognise that PR and incidents like this should be handled differently on our part. IP is an important civil right we all share, and I'd expect any painter to have a similar reaction.

 

Michael Law

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