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AIXtreme2K

ACL AP / Autothrottle looses control + other problems

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AIXtreme2K    1

Hi,

 

I practised a lot to land on a carrier. Manually it works better after hours of practicing but the ACLS gives me troubles.

 

Perhaps someone can tell me what I'm doing wrong.

 

  • At 15 nM I slow down via Airbrake and reduced throttle 
  • ACL/PCD on
  • Below 200 knots I lower the flaps and turn speedbrake off in order not to become slower than 130 kts
  • Gear down, hook down, 
  • Usually I manually trim the cat until it does not climb or descend. Hard, but it works somehow. I am missing an index, to see what my trimming is doing. Some kind digital wheel that moves upwards or downwards depending on my trimming.
  • "Shift+7" Aid helps me to bring the cat onto the glideslope. Works good at lower airspeed. It's hard to keep the ball centered, but I manage to keep it in the darker green area at least
  • Its about 10-8 nM to the carrier. A/P Ref, ACL Ready indicator already comes up at that point (even earlier).
  • I switch to Autothrottle now. That's the point, where the "aid" moves the cat up and down unpredictably. It won't just adjust the AoA, it climbs. Sometimes it descends very fast. Whatever it does, From this point on, I loose the ball. Since I am too close to the carrier to catch it again I need to turn around and give it a new try.
  • When I do not switch on autothrottle, I can turn on ACL AP. But, not surprisingly, the autopilot too kicks the cat around like it lost control. Usually it makes the F-14 climb, or it sends the bird right into descend. In that case too, the aid never keeps the ball in the center, it acts like the ball never was there, like it never had a target.

 

One thing I noticed is, that the flaps go down, but the spoilers don't. I set a keystroke to spoilers. I CAN set the manually. Somehow I missed that point. Is it neccessary to rise them when approaching the carrier?

Another thing is, that one of my engines cought fire while approaching runway at Miramar. AoA was perfect and throttle wasn't applied too much. Is there a way to prevent the engines catching fire while approaching at slow speed and high AoA?

 

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Victory103    19

You can have the F14 completely dirty in the landing config and the autothrottle will handle it. So you should set full flaps, speedbrakes out, and DLC if you want it.

Are you getting fires or just engine stalls? I would turn off the engine realism settings.

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AIXtreme2K    1

As I tried again yesterday I noticed, that Autothrottle, as you said, keeps the cat in perfect approach AoA unit.

But the Autopilot, the ACLS, once engaged takes control of the stick (I can see the stick moving on its own9, but it never keeps the ball centered. It drifts to the right without stopping, not taking care of the ball travelling outside the center.box. The next try it prolly sends the bird off to the left, again without even "noticing" the glideslope or ball.

 Why is that? The ACSL should keep the centered ball in place on its own, shouldn't it?

 

I will turn off engine fires to see if that saves the engines from catching fire. Yeah, it's on fire. No stall.

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Victory103    19

Outside of a set up issue, I'm not seeing the same gross corrections with ACLS operating, only the glideslope deviations found in the "ACLS missing the boat" thread. Otherwise the aircraft stays on lineup/glidepath from engagement for me in FSX-A. Also remember, the "autoland" system in the real world was never 100%, especially in the Tomcat days and many pilots did not trust/use it. You have watched the tutorial vid?

 

I haven't really had any fires from day one of download, many stalls but I'm sure those were sefl-induced as I learned to fly it.

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balis323    0

I have only had a couple of ACLS automated traps that actually made it to the deck and caught a wire ... I just get sick of setting up for the approach, just to miss/bolster... so now if I use ACLS I use it to a point...  I just let it fly till about 1.0 NM or just before ball call then I take it... I prefer to use auto throttle at night (at least until late in the approach)... then I overide  the autothrottle (by moving my throttles)

 

I make sure I set my physical throttles to 86% (depending on weight)... before engaging autothrottles....

That way I don't have gross differentiation between physical analog position and last auto throttle position.

 

I get better grades at night... the day approaches are tougher because I don't have Track IR.... using POV for me just doesn't cut it... so usually end up LIG 

 

fun stuff... I wonder if DCS boat ops will be as good... or if xplane will get a carrier MOD by Austin or 3rd party?

 

 

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AIXtreme2K    1

Gentlemen,

 

I gave it another try but again without success. But I noticed something what makes the ACLS lose control of the F-14. It might sound funny, but I think the ACL System Autopilot is no really engaged.

I switch ACL/VEC to ACL and usually engage the AP with its switch.

The Manual says, that I should engage the already set to ACL AP via "Shift+G" at the right point.

 

In the ACL display in the left side of the cockpit I can see A/P Ref, Landing Check, ACL Ready, A/P CPLR illuminated, but CMD Control never lights up. Neigher when I hit "Shift+G", nor when I engage the autopilot via Switch.

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If "CMD Control" doesn't light up, the ACLS is not engaged. Try to calibrate your joystick. I think if the joystick is not centered, ACLS get disengaged.

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AIXtreme2K    1

I finally managed to engage ACLS. As A/P CPLR lit up I hit Shift+G and CMD CONTROL finally was illuminated.

Unfortunately the ACLS sent the cat right over the deck straight into the water in front of the carrier. I read this could happen.

Gonna practice some more!


Thanks for your help, guys!

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balis323    0

Hmmm... is the Carrier moving or stationary? I have never tried it to a static ship.... maybe I will test  it myself this weekend... moving, not moving, and with winds/no wind.... shouldn't matter but at this point I'm curious... like I said... I have tried several ACLS and only had it trap twice... and it wasn't pretty...

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balis323    0

Ya... seems it either works pretty good... or not so good... from other posts I've read....

 

on my system the approachs look good... but I don't see the seconds to touchdown light up... I never payed it too much attention because I'm always in a time crunch... so I qual and get to the honey do list....

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balis323    0

Ok... getting ready to conduct some ACLS tests today...  before I fly I watched a couple of videos and went through the manuals again... here are some things I noted:

1. Volume 4 has the Kitty Hawk TACAN at 112.10... and  Volume 5 has it at 109.0 (what I've been using).

2. I have watched the ACLS videos I could find and I saw the following:

    A. I never see DLC on... (nor does the VOL 4 call for it)

    B. I saw one successful ACLS trap with no Flaps (surprised it worked)

    C. The videos had winds (so I will have winds in for my tests today... and only use the Kitty Hawk).

    D. I will keep VLSO software off.. I suspect now that maybe Deck Burble Effect might be causing the F-14 floating and missed approaches that I have been experiencing (?)

    E. I never saw the 10 Second light come "on" on any video that I watched (I don't recall seeing it in the 2 successful ACLS approaches that I have done in the past)... NATOPS
         says this:

         "During ACL, indicates ships motion is added to glide path information and D/L commands. For other modes indicates 10 seconds or less before any action indicates for 
           an arrival at a specific point in the approach path."

    F. Video used F-1B (I will be using the A+ Block 110).

3. I also reviewed the procedure in the F-14B NATOPS (see attached image)... and it calls for DLC.

 

I will report back after the flights and see if this helps us figure what is causing some the ACLS issues some of us have been experiencing...

 

MTF

F14B_NATOPS_ACLS_FIG 17-8.png

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balis323    0

Ok.... test complete and by no means the final word... but hope this helps

 

I agree with miroslavmurin ACLS works pretty good... but... it only worked good for me with the Kitty Hawk (for this test 12KT winds and carrier at Full Ahead). I shot 5 ACLS to the Kitty Hawk and it trapped 3 out of 5 with various cable grabs (1,2,2)

 

Using the Nimitz or Enterprise I got good indications in cockpit but always missed the wires... I flew 6 ACLS approaches and no trap...

 

I then tried using VRS AI Carrier (both Kitty Hawk and Nimitz) TACAN and ILS Freqs matched.... tried different variations including Kitty Hawk with 109.00 for both... and flew over the wires.

 

Never saw "10 Seconds" illuminate (ship or Shore ILS).

 

I didn't mess with VLSO and I used some and I had two successful ACLS traps with DLC and one without... always had Flaps Full, Speed Brake OUT...

 

Bottom line... if I use the Kitty Hawk with ACLS I get expected results....

 

Anyone have any different luck with other boats?

 

Fun... but a lot of work.... I rather Mode II it with Auto Throttle to 1.0 to .7 NM and then hand fly it to deck (for Night and IMC)

 

I recommend a checklist and a note book... at first I was losing my mind... aircraft was flying like crap and all over the place... thought I had a joystick issue... it turned out to be a flight plan that I loaded... it had the waypoints I wanted for my GPS but I had the weather set to impossible IMC with lots of shear and turbulence...  an aircraft checklist isn't all you need... a little attention to the sim Configuration Management (CM) goes a long way....

 

What is wrong with us.... this isn't a typical pastime!

 

 

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I use always Kittyhawk with F-14 and I have "turbulence effect disabled" in P3D settings so I don't have burble effect using VLSO. There is written in the F-14X manual, you should set some head wind to be sure the ACLS will work properly. I use 30 knots WOD (20 knots carrier moving, 10 knots wind). Usually grab 2 wire.

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AIXtreme2K    1

OK, this is getting interesting. 

 

I think the '10 Seconds" light is removed from the panel somehow as I never see it light up.

I only tried the missions for carrier landings, that came with the F-14X so I always used the USS Kitty Hawk. (27X)

I've got Tac Pack installed, loaded, but not used in any of my tries.

 

I will try the ACLS with spoilers fully up and, if not successfull, speedbrake fully up.

 

I watched a video on Youtube, called Carrier landing low vis. In this video CMD Control lights up while beeing 10 nM away from the carrier. I never manage to see the CMD Control light further away than 4 nM.

 

Edit: I forgot to say that all my tries so far ended in the water in front of the carrier. :)

 

 

Video:

 

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AIXtreme2K    1

Loadable Mission Kitty Hawk San Diego ACLS missed the deck by far. The Kitty Hawk needs to double its length in order to make my ACLS catch a wire.

 

DLC extended this time and ACLS engaged 4.0 nM before carrier. I did not load Tac Pack this time in order to make sure it ain't this addon which is causing the problems. I don't know if the carrier is moving in the loadable missions.

 

I'll use tac Pack to spawn the kitty hawk moving and will give it another shot.

 

Else I am running out of ideas to be honest,..

 

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"Burble effect" might cause your problems. There is no "burble effect" if you don't use vLSO, so this is not source of your problems. Try to check weather settings, you should have some headwind. Check your Realism settings to be same as in the manual, pay attention to your landing weight, speed brake extended. If it doesn't help, I have no idea what is problem. It is strange that you can engage ACLS just 4 NM before the ship. In my case it is about 10 NM. Regards to "10 seconds" announcement, I don't have it also. But I think I had it in past. So maybe there is some difference from previous versions.

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AIXtreme2K    1

Thank you for your help. I tried Hawaii Carrier Landing with Spoilers up and speedbrake out and it worked! Tried it two times in a row and it works. I really don't know where the problem was. Now I will try San Diego Carrier approach again.

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balis323    0

Awesome... when you say spoilers you mean DLC? Which are spoilers... semantics... just want make sure we are talking same same....

 

the fixed missions might be effected by winds... are you talking the pre packaged flights

/missions or the carriers floating around at pre arranged points during free flight? I'm not positive because I rarely use them... unless when setting up a TACAN... I notice a range pop up on the HUD if it happens to be in the vicinity of my  aircraft I might just land to it. But I don't think the carriers automatically adjust course for whatever weather that I have in... not sure about weather in the provided flights... only used once... cold and dark start in Persian Gulf.

 

Normally I use the Shift J for AI carriers.... to add the CVN 63...I think you need to add the kitty hawk via the configuration file in AI carriers....

 

depending on on the aircraft or carrier... you might have to edit configuration files for them... it can get laborious and easy to make a mistake (always backup a file first before editing... save as a different name first)

 

ironic that something like an automated approach could be so difficult to have it execute... but it was not so different in the real tomcat... I worked on the A-6E (Grumman bird too) and the crews didn't  like the ACLS or APC (approach power compensator... AKA auto throttle)... but hornet crews loved it... USMC squadron almost always used it.

 

i would like to see delta flight path AKA magic carpet modeled kind of the same concept as DLC but built into the OFP are algorithms for integrated lift control into the flaps... they did this first with the F-35c (I think) and then went back and put it on the F/A-18E and F.... maybe T-45c too????

 

let me know how you make out with your ACLS in the future....

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balis323    0

OBTW.... TACPAC spawned carriers might not work... I added the Kitty Hawk and made the TACAN and ILS frequencies 109.00 and no luck... plus I think you can edit the angle of approach... which they do in real life...

 

I had VLSO off... love it but the burble effect seems to affect ACLS...

 

with that said... I'm not 100% sure  I have the Kitty Hawk configured the way I want... not sure if there something I need to do for the Aerosoft IFOLS...

 

i might be confusing this with the add on Enterprise... Big E... there is a lot of configuration file edits and choices for IFOLS etc....

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AIXtreme2K    1
vor 10 Stunden , balis323 sagte:

Awesome... when you say spoilers you mean DLC? Which are spoilers... semantics... just want make sure we are talking same same....

 

the fixed missions might be effected by winds... are you talking the pre packaged flights

/missions or the carriers floating around at pre arranged points during free flight? I'm not positive because I rarely use them... unless when setting up a TACAN... I notice a range pop up on the HUD if it happens to be in the vicinity of my  aircraft I might just land to it. But I don't think the carriers automatically adjust course for whatever weather that I have in... not sure about weather in the provided flights... only used once... cold and dark start in Persian Gulf.

 

Normally I use the Shift J for AI carriers.... to add the CVN 63...I think you need to add the kitty hawk via the configuration file in AI carriers....

 

depending on on the aircraft or carrier... you might have to edit configuration files for them... it can get laborious and easy to make a mistake (always backup a file first before editing... save as a different name first)

 

ironic that something like an automated approach could be so difficult to have it execute... but it was not so different in the real tomcat... I worked on the A-6E (Grumman bird too) and the crews didn't  like the ACLS or APC (approach power compensator... AKA auto throttle)... but hornet crews loved it... USMC squadron almost always used it.

 

i would like to see delta flight path AKA magic carpet modeled kind of the same concept as DLC but built into the OFP are algorithms for integrated lift control into the flaps... they did this first with the F-35c (I think) and then went back and put it on the F/A-18E and F.... maybe T-45c too????

 

let me know how you make out with your ACLS in the future....

 

I will take a picture to clarify the terms like spoilers, DLC etc. which I prolly got wrong. Just to make sure we are talking of the same parts. I think you might help me with that.

San Diego carrier VSR carrier approach (yes, loaded from the pre packaged mission) would have been a miss, but I took control and manually landed the plane. 

I think one needs to watch the ACLS like a hwak settling on the glideslope. Once its descending ain't enough one need to take control and turn off ACLS. Btw, never flew the F/A-18. 

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