Too high on approach (EGLL)

[Sebbe 0]

I got a problem with the Airbus A319/A320 and the height when approaching London Heathrow. At descent I set the height to 2500ft but at the point where it should catch the ils localizer I'm at 5000 feet where I should be at 2500. At all other airports it works perfectly, maybe it has something to do with Orbx Vector? 

[DaveCT2003 2553]

Sebbe,

 

Hello, and welcome to the forums!  If I understood your post, you're not using the correct procedure.  A great tutorial comes with the Airbus, and it can help you a great deal with intercepting the glideslope.

 

 

[Sebbe 0]

Hello and thanks for the welcome. 

 

I don't think that I'm using a wrong procedure, I made the tutorial flight a few times with no problems, there are also no problems landing in Barcelona, Vienna, Stockholm, Berlin Tegel... 

 

Vielleicht nochmal kurz auf deutsch, ist etwas schwer das auf Englisch zu erklären, also das Flugzeug ist kurz vor dem Flughafen Heathrow zu hoch, und zwar exakt um 2500ft. Beim Sinkflug gebe ich die auf den charts angegebene Höhe von 2500ft ein und leite den Sinkflug ein, an der Stelle wo Ils dann übernehmen sollte bin ich aber statt auf 2500ft auf 5000ft, obwohl der im Flightplan und im mcdu als Fl die richtigen Werte anzeigt. 

[HAL-9000 10]

If you're too high, you're not managing the descent appropriately. Some airports have constraints that are unattainable without the application of more drag, whether that is through increasing speed, using speed brakes, using flaps or dropping the gear. If you let it get to the point where you are 2500ft high at 8 mile final, that is your fault for not sorting the issue out earlier.

[Whatsaplane 3]

Many times if you try to get the AutoPilot to control your decent past a certain Waypoint or VOR on a STAR, it will decend extremely slowly. I am not sure if this is a RL procedure, but you can always use manual V/S decent. Input the selected altitude, then right click the V/S knob, and decend using that. (Decent V/S recommendations that I use  Decending 1000ft or less: -1500fpm  2000-3000 feet of decent:-1700fpm Greater than that, consider a go-around)  Hope this helps out.

[HAL-9000 10]

Glide from above, select 180kts and flap 2, get the gear out and select VS 1500 to 2000ft/min. Beware the speed increasing beyond limits.

[DaveCT2003 2553]

2 hours ago, HAL-9000 said:

Glide from above, select 180kts and flap 2, get the gear out and select VS 1500 to 2000ft/min.

 

Well... that's one way to do it! but not really the correct procedure. In fact doing that will most certainly get you into trouble on an Online Network such as VATSIM or IVAO (especially during an event) as you'll screw up everyone who's behind you (and REALLY get them mad at you), not to mention needlessly hammering the poor controller to bits.  Of course if you're flying offline, you can do whatever you want without affecting other people.

 

As usual, we have a lot of new Airbus pilots after Christmas... and WELCOME by the way!  There is a great tutorial that comes with the Airbus, and while the descent profile is spot on, it really doesn't educate people on good descent practices and considerations.  This is something near and dear to me as I frequently get behind some "experienced" guy during a VATSIM event only to have him descend at the same or slower speed he was at during cruise, which as I said hoses everyone behind him - and the controller to boot who then has his workload go up by a factor of 10. For those who know what I'm talking about, yes, certainly the controller could have the aircraft in question speed up, but then he'd have to manage that increase of airspeed for the pilot every 2000 feet, so it really doesn't work).

 

Anyway, give me a few days and I'll get a descent instructional video out for this.

 

My very best wishes to everyone, and welcome again to the new Bus Drivers!

 

[softreset 9]

The gotcha points that I've learned with the airbus (and really, most payware aircraft), coupled with Active Sky is you have to be ahead of the game and prepared to use speedbrakes. I'd say about 65% of the time the managed mode (VNAV) does a pretty solid job. But at least in the states right now there's some pretty gnarly tailwinds (100kts+) and you have to be ahead of the planned profile.

 

Also, regarding VATSIM and especially EGLL. The last three times I've flown into Heathrow I've been descended below the published STAR restrictions and twice I've gotten a 'snatch approach' which apparently is a real world phrase (you skip the typical holding points at BNN/OCK.

 

When I started flying the Airbus in-game the part that would trip me up more than anything was the 250/10000 transition and usually the downwind/base phase. The managed descent mode is usually pretty good about being ahead of the descent profile to allow the < 250 kts @ 10000ft restriction but if you're cooking at 280+ it'll really get hung up. If I know I have a big tailwind I'll almost always go into speed mode at program 240-250 at about 12,000/14,000 ft unless there are posted speed constraints.

 

I'll also usually stay faster than the managed approach speeds, usually to the outer marker. I've definitely turned onto the LOC at 240kts on multiple occasions while I'm still playing catch up the FAF altittude.

 

But definitely don't be afraid to step out of automation, that's one thing I've learned with this aircraft and really any aircraft in-game. The moment the plane doesn't behave as expected, you have to intervene and make it do what you want it do (within reason). I've flown a lot of STARs faster and higher than posted, because I just let the autopilot do its thing and while I still make mistakes, it's been a great learning experience and a lot of fun trying different combinations until you figure out what works best for you and the sim.

[DaveCT2003 2553]

I thought I'd offer a few helpful hints...

 

Holds are normally used when traffic load or problems with aircraft exist, they are not normally used otherwise so you shouldn't expect to be directed to hold under normal circumstances.  Flying into Class B Airspace, the pilots attention / concentration should be very high. You can get a feel for the traffic level by the number of callsigns you're hearing (or cheat by using VATSPY or similar program), and if the airport isn't overloaded you shouldn't expect to be directed to a hold.

 

It's also common to be taken off an arrival, and to get a short cut to an approach (especially for a visual approach).  Remember, that aproaches at large airports that handle a lot of traffic in real life (since we use their charts) can be longer to accommodate larger levels of traffic, and in that traffic doesn't exist the controller will usually try to get you in and down as soon as possible. This is often the norm on VATSIM.  You can also expect this even during very busy times when a controller has a hole in incoming traffic that you can fill.  The lesson here is to anticipate it occurring, and planning for it will prevent one from being surprised by it.

 

 

 

 

 

[skelsey 103]

4 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

Well... that's one way to do it! but not really the correct procedure.

 

In fairness, I think HAL is more likely than most of us to know the correct 'glideslope from above' procedure . It's certainly how I'd fly it and I can assure you that 180kt/Flap 2/VS -1500 to -2000fpm on base/final at LHR (or, frankly, any UK airport) is not going to cause anybody any problems.

 

4 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

There is a great tutorial that comes with the Airbus, and while the descent profile is spot on, it really doesn't educate people on good descent practices and considerations.  This is something near and dear to me as I frequently get behind some "experienced" guy during a VATSIM event only to have him descend at the same or slower speed he was at during cruise, which as I said hoses everyone behind him - and the controller to boot who then has his workload go up by a factor of 10. For those who know what I'm talking about, yes, certainly the controller could have the aircraft in question speed up, but then he'd have to manage that increase of airspeed for the pilot every 2000 feet, so it really doesn't work).

 

"BAW123, speed 280 knots or greater." Perfectly normal in real life and works just fine on VATSIM as well. Why should it require any more workload than that?

 

ATC are there to manage the traffic flow, and they are (or should be) quite capable of dealing with aircraft flying at different speeds -- again, in real life it's quite normal for aircraft to cruise and descend at a range of different speeds (Emirates, for example, plan their flights with dynamic CIs depending on operational requirements and so their A380s can be cruising at anything from about M0.78 to M0.89 -- it's categorically not a problem for ATC), and with fuel saving high on most airlines' agenda these days long, slow descents are pretty much de rigeur. But if and when ATC require higher, or lower speeds they just ask.

 

1 hour ago, softreset said:

Also, regarding VATSIM and especially EGLL. The last three times I've flown into Heathrow I've been descended below the published STAR restrictions and twice I've gotten a 'snatch approach' which apparently is a real world phrase (you skip the typical holding points at BNN/OCK.

 

Just a note -- in the UK there are no STAR 'restrictions' as such. The levels published on the charts are purely for your information so that you can plan your descent, and they are the standard starting point, but they are not like STARs in other countries where there can be a published descent profile to follow -- that's why the charts are labelled "Expect FLxxx" (and on the official UK AIP charts there is a big disclaimer on the charts saying ACTUAL DESCENT CLEARANCE WILL BE AS DIRECTED BY ATC). This is why ATC climb and descent instructions in the UK always override anything on the charts and and crossing restrictions will be clearly stated ("BAW123, descend FL160 to be level by SABER.").

 

If it is quiet it is fairly common to get track shortening in to LHR (and most UK airports for that matter) -- particularly if Heathrow is landing westerly you can get a more or less straight-in from almost as you cross the coast on a LAM3A, and likewise easterly you may well be vectored fairly early on an OCK or BNN (though there's less benefit on a BNN from the north). Once it starts getting busier though it is more common to go all the way to BNN/OCK/LAM/BIG as it is easier to integrate the traffic flows using the standard vectoring patterns from the holding fix, though actually having to hold is pretty rare on VATSIM outside of events (but not unheard of at LHR). Obviously in real life almost everything goes through the holding fixes unless it is really quiet (i.e. late at night etc).

[DaveCT2003 2553]

32 minutes ago, skelsey said:

In fairness, I think HAL is more likely than most of us to know the correct 'glideslope from above' procedure . It's certainly how I'd fly it and I can assure you that 180kt/Flap 2/VS -1500 to -2000fpm on base/final at LHR (or, frankly, any UK airport) is not going to cause anybody any problems.

 

Well, I'm quite sure I'm sure, IF one is taking approaches. The original post was about Descents.  Under normal conditions, it would be lunacy to descend anything above FL180 at 180 knots and flaps 2 set, and usually a bad idea even at lower altitudes.  Approaches?  Sure, that would be normal.  Descent?  Lunacy.  Not even some of the whack jobs i flew with in the Navy would do that (they weren't all whack jobs, in fact just a few of them!).

 

Best wishes.

 

 

[skelsey 103]

16 minutes ago, DaveCT2003 said:

Under normal conditions, it would be lunacy to descend anything above FL180 at 180 knots and flaps 2 set, and usually a bad idea even at lower altitudes. 

 

Of course. However, the OP was talking about being high on approach, and whilst I agree that the root cause can be traced back to mismanaging the descent as a whole, I thought it was fairly clear that HAL was referring to managing/rescuing the intermediate/final approach. However, there's the issue with text communication -- we all read things differently .

 

Best,

 

Simon

[Liesel Downes 61]

The way I always get it right is just by setting the glide slope intercept altitude before T/D and pushing in the knob at T/D, then letting the aircraft do the rest until the glide slope. Usually I will be below the glide slope when I finish descent but then I can press the LS button and wait for the diamond to align, and then I press the APP button.

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

21 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

 

Well... that's one way to do it! but not really the correct procedure. In fact doing that will most certainly get you into trouble on an Online Network such as VATSIM or IVAO (especially during an event) as you'll screw up everyone who's behind you (and REALLY get them mad at you), not to mention needlessly hammering the poor controller to bits.  Of course if you're flying offline, you can do whatever you want without affecting other people.

 

 

it might get you in troubles with those controllers but it is perfectly acceptable flying as long as you not get in the way of other aircraft. I most certainly seen it done in real life. I also think Hal might be a professional busdriver?

[skelsey 103]

Hi there,

The way I always get it right is just by setting the glide slope intercept altitude before T/D and pushing in the knob at T/D, then letting the aircraft do the rest until the glide slope. Usually I will be below the glide slope when I finish descent but then I can press the LS button and wait for the diamond to align, and then I press the APP button.

Unfortunately whilst this may work most of the time it will not work all of the time: as explained, there are some profiles and procedures that the aeroplane simply cannot achieve fully managed.

It is a good start, but you cannot 100% rely on it: there will be times when you need to intervene with selected modes etc.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[DaveCT2003 2553]

2 hours ago, Mathijs Kok said:

I most certainly seen it done in real life.

 

This might be a learning experience for this US Naval Flight Officer... descent from 36,000ft at flaps 2 and 180 kts?  Hmm.  Not that it can't be done, but operationally?  And you've seen this in real life?  I'm gonna reserve judgement on that one until I check it out with some commercial guys.  If find what I think I will, you'll owe me more than just one drink!  Of course it will go the other way if you're wrong... LOL!!!

 

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the conversations crossed over as Simon said, and Hal was talking more about the arrival to approach profile, rather than the descent as the OP started the conversation about.

 

 

[HAL-9000 10]

On Thursday, January 05, 2017 at 6:21 PM, DaveCT2003 said:

 

Well... that's one way to do it! but not really the correct procedure. In fact doing that will most certainly get you into trouble on an Online Network such as VATSIM or IVAO (especially during an event) as you'll screw up everyone who's behind you (and REALLY get them mad at you), not to mention needlessly hammering the poor controller to bits.  Of course if you're flying offline, you can do whatever you want without affecting other people.

 

As usual, we have a lot of new Airbus pilots after Christmas... and WELCOME by the way!  There is a great tutorial that comes with the Airbus, and while the descent profile is spot on, it really doesn't educate people on good descent practices and considerations.  This is something near and dear to me as I frequently get behind some "experienced" guy during a VATSIM event only to have him descend at the same or slower speed he was at during cruise, which as I said hoses everyone behind him - and the controller to boot who then has his workload go up by a factor of 10. For those who know what I'm talking about, yes, certainly the controller could have the aircraft in question speed up, but then he'd have to manage that increase of airspeed for the pilot every 2000 feet, so it really doesn't work).

 

Anyway, give me a few days and I'll get a descent instructional video out for this.

 

My very best wishes to everyone, and welcome again to the new Bus Drivers!

 

 

As I am an A319/A320 pilot for a major airline, I can promise you that that most certainly is the correct procedure.

[HAL-9000 10]

On Friday, January 06, 2017 at 7:11 PM, DaveCT2003 said:

 

This might be a learning experience for this US Naval Flight Officer... descent from 36,000ft at flaps 2 and 180 kts?  Hmm.  Not that it can't be done, but operationally?  And you've seen this in real life?  I'm gonna reserve judgement on that one until I check it out with some commercial guys.  If find what I think I will, you'll owe me more than just one drink!  Of course it will go the other way if you're wrong... LOL!!!

 

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the conversations crossed over as Simon said, and Hal was talking more about the arrival to approach profile, rather than the descent as the OP started the conversation about.

 

 

 

Yes I am referring to being high and above the glideslope. As I stated, it is the 'glideslope intercept from above' procedure. Now, it won't work if you are 2500ft high, but it will save you if you are coming in and the diamond is twitching below the first dot, and it might save you beyond that too.

 

And yes of course I didn't mean to get flaps out at 36,000ft. Increase speed or get out speedbrakes, or both. I stated 'glide from above' and then have the procedure in response to:

 

On Wednesday, January 04, 2017 at 10:06 PM, Whatsaplane said:

Many times if you try to get the AutoPilot to control your decent past a certain Waypoint or VOR on a STAR, it will decend extremely slowly. I am not sure if this is a RL procedure, but you can always use manual V/S decent. Input the selected altitude, then right click the V/S knob, and decend using that. (Decent V/S recommendations that I use  Decending 1000ft or less: -1500fpm  2000-3000 feet of decent:-1700fpm Greater than that, consider a go-around)  Hope this helps out.

 

In which Whatsaplane discussed simply using VS and 1700ft per minute but then stated that if that didn't work he would go around. Now, if he is talking about going around, that means he must be referring to final approach, so I was simply clarifying the procedure. Obviously I didn't make this clear.

 

For disambiguity: if you are high, increase drag or increase track miles. If you are in intermediate approach and too high, ask for more track miles. If they don't give it to you, and speedbrakes aren't fixing it (they are less effective at slower speeds) consider slowing to enable you to get flaps out. A problem on a 320 is that speed brakes will bring the Vls above 220kts, so if you want to do 220kts because of speed control but need the speed brakes because you are high, you will need to use flaps. It is also a good idea if high on intermediate approach to select open descent, 180kts (or 185 but that doesn't leave you much wiggle room) and take Flaps 2 - you'll drop quickly, and it leaves you at a good speed for turning into final. If that doesn't work, consider getting the gear out. Remember the definition of an Intermediate Approach. It isn't just the part of the approach before the turn onto finals, it is also defined as the part of the approach in which the speed and vertical speed are reduced in order to make a smooth transition to final approach. If you are on Intermediate Approach and too fast, you're doing it wrong. You should be slowing down and reducing vertical speed (which will help you slow down anyway) at this point, but if you have gotten yourself into that situation anyway, the above will help.

 

If before the intermediate approach (i.e. downwind), speedbrakes should be enough. Be wary of increasing speed here as you will possibly be given speed constraints soon and it will mess up your entire plan, as the Airbus struggles to slow down and go down at the same time, particularly a Sharklet 320. If you are further out than that, speeding up with speedbrakes is a great solution and can get you down very quickly. Just be aware that you will have a 250kt restriction coming up at FL100 and you may be given speed control by ATC at some point.

 

If you are quite far out, just Increase speed and don't worry about speed brakes. Increasing speed above green dot increases parasite drag more than it decreases induced drag, so there is a net increase in drag. To help you think about it clearly - in clean config, green dot is the most efficient speed, giving the best lift/drag ratio, and the more you deviate from that, the worse your lift/drag ratio and so the more drag you will make. Don't fly below green dot while clean, though. It will increase drag but you'll be speed unstable and liable to stall. Also it gets you there more quickly if you speed up, which makes it more efficient than using speed brakes from a commercial point of view, and less noisy for passengers and those in the ground trying to have their breakfast in peace.

 

But if you are trying to capture the glideslope but you are above it, you carry out the glideslope from above procedure, which means 180kts (well whatever speed you can get flaps 2 out anyway) select flaps 2 and then you can either get the gear out and select 2000ft per minute, or leave gear up and select 1500ft per minute, depending on how high above the glide you are. This will not work for higher than 3 degree approaches, so don't mess those up.

 

I hope this has clarified what in was trying to say. 

[HAL-9000 10]

On 06/01/2017 at 7:11 PM, DaveCT2003 said:

 

This might be a learning experience for this US Naval Flight Officer... descent from 36,000ft at flaps 2 and 180 kts?  Hmm.  Not that it can't be done, but operationally?

 

Also, it is a minor point in this overall discussion, but remember that, actually, it can't be done. Flap/slat limitations on the altitude. 20,000ft, if I recall.

[Guinea-Pig on Glideslope 18]

Interesting discussion. I read some stuff about it in A320 FCOM and FCTM. They included some nice hints, for coping with difficult ILS approaches. (Just a passionate reader and A320 sim aviator here.)

Typically, the descent should initiated 10 to 15 miles prior to top of descent.

If you are quite too late with descent and traffic allows, speed should reduced to green dot speed, if possible, so that you can drop into descent after you obtained your descent clearance.

Spoilers can be used, but should be extracted only half above FL310 to avoid high speed stall.

Once in Approach Mode is activated, you have several means to reduce speed easily.

Up to 200 knots spoilers could be used for speed reduction. Using spoilers below 200 knots speed should be avoided due to increased risk of stall.

If you need additional drag, drop the landing gear. This should work better than any spoiler deployment in this speed category.

Meanwhile monitor vertical deviation on your PFD. If you are still too high change to selected vertical speed and reduce descent rate. Do not exceed a descent rate of - 1000 feet per minute.

Gesendet von meinem SM-T550 mit Tapatalk

[Sabre10 8]

On 1/5/2017 at 9:21 PM, DaveCT2003 said:

 

 

Anyway, give me a few days and I'll get a descent instructional video out for this.

 

 

Dave, still waiting for the video, all instructional videos on flying techniques will be very much appreciated. Just reading pdfs doesn't cut it for me compared to the quality videos. Are there any good ones available on A320 flying techniques btw?

 

Thanks,

Sabre10.