Chris Bell 144 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 so we got another one of those magic tricks to increase performance in P3Dv3the claim is - 500MB VAS reduction and increase FPS by 22% in V3its just started on AVSIM; worth keeping an eye on [quote name="Rob Ainscough" post="3313796" timestamp="1445233139"]the claim is that HT OFF will save 500MB VAS and increase FPS. As you know I'm extremely skeptical about "magic bullets" and have explored many of them over the last decade ... however, this "finding" came to me from Saul (LM moderator using the same CPU I have) who was reading a post by Aviator1979 here: http://www.prepar3d....f=6312&t=114987 Since I had just done some VAS testing earlier in and around Aerosoft's EGLL, I thought I'd put the HT OFF claim to the test. To my surprise I was able to confirm the 500MB VAS savings and a 22% FPS increase. Here is the scenario I used:Prepar3D V3Aerosoft Heathrow (EGLL)Orbx FTX Global Orbx OpenLC EUPILOT's FS Global 2010 FTX Edtion MeshFSDT GSX ground services (active)Active Sky Next (ASN) Weather Engine (Archive weather 10/18/2015) Majestic Dash-8 Q400MyTraffic 6 - 2015 scheduleFSUIPCGoFlight Interface Tool Graphics Settings used: http://www.robainsco...s_Very_Low.htmlCPU used: 5960X Do NOT use any affinity tweaks (temporarily remove them if you have them). Departing gate 108 at EGLL - 11:17 AM - Take note of VASTaxi to runway 09L (departing east)Take off and climb to 20,000 FT - DTO to MEDWYAt MEDWY, come back to PILOK then D113B for landing(if you miss approach just come back around and land on 09L)Park at Gate 188 or 186Shutdown and evoke GSX deboarding - Take note of VASIf you have FRAPS then log time frame data to file Run this scenario with HT ON and then again with HT OFF and report back and be sure to indicate what type of CPU you have. I'll post my video's with my findings tomorrow (uploading them now), but would like to hear from others. Cheers, Rob. http://www.avsim.com/topic/476776-500mb-vas-reduction-and-increase-fps-by-22-in-v3-need-some-testers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabian Boulegue 403 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Sounds really interesting Chris, but i would wonder if there is no negativ sideeffect.Else why this is no default value? Isnt HT = hyperthreading so how does this effect the VAS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bell 144 Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 Hi Fabian,i cannot explain in any logical way at this point the outcome of this claim,it is very early to determine the side-effect of this new discovery,indeed HT stands for hyper-threading; it is still unclear how it effects VAS in sim usage;in most situation this will reduce FPS in general and increase cpu load; it is interesting to see how this will develop, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi 5161 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 mmh, on a first look nothing changed for me.Even the opposite is the case for me, the VAS usage went UP by 100mb for me. Fps maybe got up by 1 or 2 (22% would be like 5 on my system).In my testscenario I'm parked with the PMDG77W at KSFO, fair weather, of course always same settings, etc.Doing some more tests now, but I would not know how this could technically work anyway (which mustn't mean it can't work, but anyway...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bell 144 Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 same here Emi,i cant either put a technical or a logical explanation for this, yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi 5161 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Probably another of those "I found the magical tweak that makes FSX perfect" things...People tend to overreact when they first discover something that gives them a better result (as said, I also get 1-2 fps more), just like those who claimed they would get dual digit fps increase with the optimise simparts tweak.Yes, it gives better fps, but so far no one could proof me a dual digit fps increase.On my computer it was also around the 1-2 fps area, just like this one. On the other side, it seems to work for some people... who knows, maybe they'll find something. It's not like we haven't seen any magical FS things at all yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deputy Sheriffs Tom A320 4915 Posted October 19, 2015 Deputy Sheriffs Share Posted October 19, 2015 In my opinion this would be, if it would work, a hint on a bug (which LM would surely fix soon).The only logical explanation for a single threaded application using less memory and being faster than a multi threaded one, would be, that P3D would determine that it's in single thread mode and use another memory management model in this case (which is more efficient -> higher fps). The model for multi threaded applications would then be less efficient (-> lower fps) and also has a bug that not all unused memory would be freed again.With all the improvements LM did in it's memory management it's not unlikely that there still might be the one or the other bug in it. But it's hard to believe that they missed such a huge one as I am sure they stressed their new memory management to it's limits prior to release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bell 144 Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 you said it Tom!that same thought been creeping in my mind as the only logical explanation to this;with the same conclusion you came to; it will be fixed shortly,it also seem to be effective with newer CPU architectures;who knows; maybe the new bridge makes that much difference (still doesn't sit right)maybe in single core mode the system natively moves more processing to the GPU units?therefore elevating processing priority from the main cpu to gpu’s cores (different priority set) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Ainscough 204 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I'm not one to post magic ... there are many variables that could be at play:1. Bug in C++ 2013 libraries2. Bug in Win7 64bit3. Bug in LM's code when core counts are high4. Intel HT design issue with the CPU 5960XPosted a video outlining one of my testing results here ... I used Aerosoft's EGLL because of it's high VAS usage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W5CeDlRMaQTechnically it is possible if duplicate threads are being created performing the same task or unique tasks in which they are waiting for each other to complete (deadlocks - holding onto resources) ... the more concurrent threads operating the more VAS is going to be used. Also Intel have not been immune to HT design issues where resources can deadlock ... check out white papers on Intel Hyperthreading with Pros and Cons especially with recent out-of-order execution.I think it's good for folks to report their findings ... in my case with P3D V3 HT is staying OFF until further notice. I'm not looking for believers, just sharing info and gathering data.Cheers, Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bell 144 Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 Thank you Rob,as we we weren't confused enough (you should use the .be link on the newer board for the video to show up; fix the link in your post so i can remove this) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerardius 4 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 so we got another one of those magic tricks to increase performance in P3Dv3the claim is - 500MB VAS reduction and increase FPS by 22% in V3its just started on AVSIM; worth keeping an eye on http://www.avsim.com/topic/476776-500mb-vas-reduction-and-increase-fps-by-22-in-v3-need-some-testers Chris Hi!I discovered this "issue" of the HT three days ago, so I am Happy Rob Ainscough confirms it. I deactivated my HT in order to monitor and compare the VAS, as read in the P3D forum from a user that complained that with HT had VAS issues, and my surprise was when I started my flight at LEBL, as often, with my PMDG 737NGX getting a lot more of FPS. I recomended it in a forum here at Spain, but nobody got my excelent results.Best regardsGerard Cabezón PD: Excuse my poor english, but I refuse to use the translator XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bell 144 Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 Gerard, thank you for confirming this,to help the efforts of better understanding this phenomena;could you please report your Operating system and CPU/GPU you currently use?TIAChris, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Ainscough 204 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Could those of you that tested HT ON and HT OFF please list your CPU and your OS along with VAS (increase, decrease, no change) and FPS (increase, decrease, no change).Lots of variables at work here so trying to narrow it down some. As some of you may know that Cache size of more recent CPU can cause things like Win7 Performance Index to fail ... requires email to Microsoft who will send out a specific hotfix ... there are just so many variables at play. Hopefully LM take this onboard and run their own diagnostics but given the complexity of threading and thread synchronization it may require more investigation than it's worth.But to be clear, this "finding" wasn't mine, it was presented to me by someone running the same CPU as I and I proceed to test ... I'll admit, my expectations were to see NO benefit and I was surprised at my results (repeated the tests a couple of times).Cheers, Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Ainscough 204 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Well a successful flight from Aerosoft's EGLL to Aerosoft's Dublin (manual install into V3 hope that's ok with Aerosoft), used GSX (full - deboard, board, etc.) turn around and back to EGLL using GSX deboarding ... using the PMDG 737 ... all in the same single P3D session. Starting VAS 2.9GB ending VAS 3.5GB.Settings used: P3D V3 Graphics SettingsAdd-ons:Aerosoft Heathrow Extended (V3 installer)Dublin X (V2 installer with manual migration to V3)PMDG 737 (latest Nav data)Orbx FTX GlobalOrbx OpenLC EUASN (weather - networked)MyTraffic 6 (2015 schedule)PrecipitFXGSX (enabled at Dublin and EGLL)PILOT's FTX Edition MeshFSUIPCGoFlight Interface ToolFSCommander 9.6 (networked)Only other Add-On I have that I would toss into the mix is ProATC X (networked).Video to follow of the flight and VAS usage using HT OFF. I was unable to do this flight with HT ON (OOM on approach to Dublin). I haven't tried any setting of Affinity yet and probably will not ... I may turn 4 more cores OFF via EFI/BIOS to see if there is any further VAS/FPS improvement. There was NO visual quality reduction in terrain with HT OFF (8 physical cores).Cheers, Rob. EDIT: FPS at EGLL was not great, dropped below 30 FPS (27ish) but not enough to affect input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi 5161 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Well a successful flight from Aerosoft's EGLL to Aerosoft's Dublin (manual install into V3 hope that's ok with Aerosoft)Sure, we have no problem with this! Just don't expect support for it until addons are officially compatible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuno Pinto 247 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 This memory 'phenomena' happens with my P3DV3 as well, but in contrast, i have much better performance with HT (AffinityMask 85 = All physical cores) than without HT (AffinityMask 14 = only last 3 physical cores).If i use Mask = 84 with HT (one less core like without HT) or Mask = 15 (all cores like with HT), i have considerable stuttering. With Mask 85 and HT, i am able to maintain 60fps throughout most sceneries i fly in with VSYNC enabled, which is butter smooth and incredible.Main Hardware: nVidia GTX980; Core i7 4790K (4.6GHz), 8GB DDR3 2.4GHz. Yesterday, i had a test with these settings:Bergen to Heathrow (both Aerosoft)Addons: OpenLC, Vector, FTX Global Base, EGLC, EGKK, EGSS, ASN with increased cloud density, online on IVAO, PMDG 737-700, no AES (obviously), no GSX, no other addonsI was able to maintain 40 to 60fps throughout all phases of flight, even on touchdown at EGLL and my VAS never went below 1.1GB. I use a small tool i wrote myself to help me monitor all this, image attached (if you want a copy just PM me).I find it hard to believe some people actually manage to have OOM with V3. I suspect it must be related to the immense quantity of addons (traffic, airport effects such as ORBX's, etc) used, because even on FSX it was hard for me to have OOM. If i performed this flight with good old FSX, i would still be able to land, but with ~200MB of free memory as opposed to 1.1GB yesterday.I am happy with what LM offered us and i am going to purchase V3 for sure (i am running a 30 day license right now), because it surely deserves my cash. Sorry if i went a bit offtopic, but wanted to share my experiences and how happy i am with the new memory management. Please login to display this image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bell 144 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 Well a successful flight from Aerosoft's...OK, lets see if all the stars are alignedcan you load NE France, Paris level 4 @LFPO (pretty please ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerosoft Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558 Posted October 21, 2015 Aerosoft Share Posted October 21, 2015 Sure, we have no problem with this! Just don't expect support for it until addons are officially compatible.Indeed, we'll never tell people what they can or cannot do with the things they buy. It's good to see people experiencing a smooth and stable sim platform for the first time since FS2004 was phased out for FSX. P3D v3 is indeed amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K 93 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Can I just ask all those people who are experimenting with HT on and off - are you switching HT off in BIOS, or are you doing it using Window's Task Manager ? I'm going to experiment with this over the weekend, and I'd like to be at the same end of the level playing field.Mathijs, agreed - with P3Dv3, we may have finally 'arrived'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuno Pinto 247 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 There's only one way to shut HT off, and that's in the BIOS. It's a toggle that cannot be done within Windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K 93 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Okay, I wondered whether unticking the virtual cores in Task Manager/processes/P3D amounted to the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardrockCafe 93 Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 I can confirm that HT off will reduce the VAS about 400 - 500 MB for me. Not more FPS, but a better VAS. With HT on, the VAS is increasing randomly during the flight (about 400 - 500 MB). With HT off, the VAS is very stable.Intel 3930k, 16GB RAM, GTX 670 @ 4GB and Win10 x64.Would be great if LM could have a look into this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K 93 Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Okay, I wondered whether unticking the virtual cores in Task Manager/processes/P3D amounted to the same thing.Sorry to labour this, and forgive my possible misunderstanding, but can I ask the question once more - is using an affinity mask in P3D.cfg, or unticking the virtual cores in Task Manager / Processes / P3D, sufficient to test whether any FPS & VAS benefits are gained by disabling HT, or must it be done ( and only be done ) by disabling BIOS ? People are saying that they disable HT in BIOS, and that's fine, but I cant seem to get the definitive answer about whether the Affinity Mask or unticking the virtual cores achieves the same thing.Any help on this specific question would be very gratefully received Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerardius 4 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 On 20/10/2015 2:18:28, Chris Bell said: Gerard, thank you for confirming this, to help the efforts of better understanding this phenomena; could you please report your Operating system and CPU/GPU you currently use? TIA Chris, Sorry Chris, I had a lot of hard days last weeks and got no time to read this forum, so here are my specifications as you requested: CPU: Intel Core i7 2600K 3.4GHz @4.8 GHz. MoBo: Asus P8P67 DeLuxe Rev. B3 Cooler: Noctua NH-D14 GPU: Asus GeForce GTX 970 Strix 4 GB DDR5 RAM: 16 GB DDR3 GSkill Ripjaw 1600MHz Power unit: Corsair TM 950 W Benq LED RL2450H HD 24" Operating System: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits Hope this help, Cheers Gerard Cabezón Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aviator1979 2 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I am indeed the discoverer of this HT problem, thanks for spreading the word guys so LM can fix it soon. I refuse the nobel prize hahahahahahaha just kidding not seriously ment hahaha cheers all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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